Help Recording live CELLO ENSEMBLE

[whitegalacticwiz]

Hey gang!
Need a little help for an important Cello recording.

My school is having a "CELLOBRATION" concert with anywhere from a quartet of cellos playing, to 18 cellos playing at one time, along with a solo soprano vocalist front and center stage. The cellos will be set up in a half-moon formation on stage, in a performance hall (which is pretty "self-noisy").

My AVAILABLE mics are:

2 Pairs of Neumann KM184
1 Pair of Neumann KM100
1 Schoeps KFM 6 Microphone (sphere)
1 Pair of Shure KSM44

I was planning on doing a Blumlein configuration on front stage, but now I have the obstacle of a vocalist being in that position. The stage is about 4 feet off the ground, approximately 30 feet wide, and the concert hall has pretty good acoustics (other than the air-which we try to turn off, being a loud interference).

The recording will go on to be used for promotional reasons, so I've got to take advantage of all possibilities. I figured I could use a blumlein somewhere mid-center with the 44's in bi-directional (somehow not interfering much with the fact the soloist will be front center), the Sphere, maybe an ORTF, and spacing the omnis.

It's important I get as much sound and location as possible, being we'll be synching with a video recording.

ANY SUGGESTIONS I CAN GET WOULD BE GREAT!!!

Thanks

[fifthcircle]

Which capsules are on the "KM100" That number refers to the body of the mic only. There will be a number on the capsule which will tell us what mic it really is...

Cello ensembles are beautiful. I'd probably go with a stereo pair center and omni flanks (which should really help the low end). A blumlein pair is great, but you can't have it too close to the group. You may also find that to make the large variety of ensembles work on the recording that you need to move mics between pieces. Your KSM44's sound fine in omni. Those could be your flanks (assuming that your KM100 mics don't have omni caps- then I'd use those).

As for a main pair- perhaps the Schoeps sphere. I haven't used them much, but they are basically a baffled omni pair. Image will be good and should bring out the best parts of the sound of the group and the hall. The down side is that it is big and you will likely need it to be relatively close to the performers.

--Ben

[whitegalacticwiz]

Actually yes, the capsules on the 100's are indeed omni.

What do you think about Shoeps sphere centered, raised about 10-11ft (equivalent to about 6-7 feet above stage floor), with a blumlein further behind about 8ft high, and flanking the 100's... I've had some great sounds with blumlein (as always), and have heard great things especially with strings/cello recordings.

Thanks!

[fifthcircle]

Your vocalist will sound more centered with the blumlein pair. I generally choose one or the other when it comes to a main pair. When micing with multiple mics, you really need to think about the whole system and what it brings to you. A blumlein pair will bring a more exact center of your image and it won't integrate as well with your omnis. You'll find that the omnis will probably be lower in gain settings for the recording to work well. With an omni-based rig (like you'd get with the sphere), your image won't be as good, but the 4 mics across the front will interact with each other a bit better and you'll have a more even level across the entire rig.

Both can get great sounds, but you need to decide which you want and go from there...

-Ben

[NorseHorse]

Cooool. Put the KFM 6 out in the hall for natural reverb. I have a Crown SASS that is awesome for this.

[David Rick]

The Schoeps sphere has a pattern that is symmetrical about an axis through the microphone capsules. That means you can fly it up out of camera view if you need to. With the KM 100's as outriggers, you've got the basic sound. But since there may be camera closeups, you may want some spots available to match sound to picture.

Here's what I would suggest: Put the KSM 44's in Blumlein on a short stand in the middle of the arc of cellos and behind the vocalist. You can then use matrix steering in post to synthesize a figure-8 pointing at any player. Use one of the KM 184's as a spot mic on the soprano. Keep the other KM 184 handy to spot mic the harpist that they haven't told you about!

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[piano]

Man, DONT use the KSM 44's ---- they are so over rated - cheap non-detailed sound.

Schoeps in the front KM184's in the back. DONE.

[ghellquist]

As you asked for suggestions here they come.

1 - rehearse everything well in advance. Test you recording equipment. Test setting it up. Pull it down, set it up again. Several days in advance
Reason: on concert day you will most probably be in a hurry. Not getting access to the hall early enough, or whatever. You will have forgotten an important cable. Or the fire engineer will forbid you running a cable past the aisle (or whatever). Or camera crew will forbid you to put mics where you want them.

2 - test your recording device doing a long recording (several hours).

3 - test your skills in restarting the recording device after a power failure or whatever.

4 - do test recordings in the hall, concentrating on where it sounds best. Listen, listen and listen again. The best sounding place is probably where you want your mics. Here is where experience comes into play, and only way to get experience is to try. Get one or more of the cellists to sit in the hall in these tests and try out things. Get a singer to make noises as well.

5 - make a scetch on paper where you have your mics. Write in which channel goes where. If you use a snake, carefully write down which cable goes where.

6 - bring extra cables. Extra a bit here and there.

7 - prepare a backup. Say your main, multichannel recording device stops working. Do you have a 2 channel simple device with a stereo mic you could use as backup?

8 - stay calm, never run. Be friendly but firm.

9 - bring some water and something simple to eat. Go to the toilet before the concert.

Gunnar

[Matti]

Originally Posted by David Rick

Here's what I would suggest: Put the KSM 44's in Blumlein on a short stand in the middle of the arc of cellos and behind the vocalist. You can then use matrix steering in post to synthesize a figure-8 pointing at any player.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

Slightly out of context:
Help me find windows vst matrix software to do this, will be used with Nuendo.
Thanks!

Matti

[Jim vanBergen]

You've had several very good suggestions from people who do phenomenal work.

I'm going to add a touch to Gunnar's excellent post:

Record a rehearsal of the group, testing your preferred rig, as well as your setup & strike process. Hopefully they will rehearse in the performance space!

You'll learn a LOT about what you plan to do, and you can test different mics over several songs, and decide for yourself what you think of the various mics you have at your disposal, instead of taking it from US what mics we think work best where.

All the mics you list are solid tools. What mic preamps, mixer, and final format will you use? Any other notes about your kit?
You planning on taking pictures or posting any clips?

Please let us know how it goes.

JvB

[whitegalacticwiz]

Thanks all for the suggestions!

I was able to attend the one rehearsal, however was NOT able to test the gear, being that the gear is shared through the university, and in use for another recording. I have located the placement of all the change possibilities, as well as sweet spots according to my sensative ears. I have arranged for a blumlein, capable of being slightly above ear level (and stand level) front center in the arch of the between cellos and conductor... easy move from start of concert with just the quartet... and perfect for the set of 12 & 18 cellos pieces. Also, the 2 raised omnis equal distance off down stage centered on each side of the arch. Lastly, a 184 out front raised slightly left of center and back slightly to catch ambience of her voice.

We're going to be video recording as well, so continuous tracking and synching will be done... they're using it for promotional things as well. Should be fun, and BEAUTIFUL it is. We're getting there plenty early so we'll have time to test.

I'll try to get some clips of here when things are done.

Thanks for the add ins, love the wisdoms

[BlackestEyes]

Originally Posted by whitegalacticwiz

We're going to be video recording as well, so continuous tracking and synching will be done... they're using it for promotional things as well. Should be fun, and BEAUTIFUL it is. We're getting there plenty early so we'll have time to test.

Make sure you have some sort of sync box between the camera and whatever you are using to record. Otherwise you risk the chance of freewheeling and things not being completely locked up.

[krs]

Originally Posted by whitegalacticwiz

Thanks all for the suggestions!

I was able to attend the one rehearsal, however was NOT able to test the gear, being that the gear is shared through the university, and in use for another recording. I have located the placement of all the change possibilities, as well as sweet spots according to my sensative ears. I have arranged for a blumlein, capable of being slightly above ear level (and stand level) front center in the arch of the between cellos and conductor... easy move from start of concert with just the quartet... and perfect for the set of 12 & 18 cellos pieces. Also, the 2 raised omnis equal distance off down stage centered on each side of the arch. Lastly, a 184 out front raised slightly left of center and back slightly to catch ambience of her voice.

We're going to be video recording as well, so continuous tracking and synching will be done... they're using it for promotional things as well. Should be fun, and BEAUTIFUL it is. We're getting there plenty early so we'll have time to test.

I'll try to get some clips of here when things are done.

Thanks for the add ins, love the wisdoms

I would grab an ORTF pair above and behind the conductor as well - that Blumlein pair might be too close...you probably can't count on those omnis if you have an ill-behaved audience

I second piano's feelings about the KSM44 - though that could be an interesting and intimate sound inside the circle like that. Just make sure you have another option, cellos can be noisy (string noise, bow noise, feet noise, wolves, rattles etc)

good luck

[David Rick]

Have you given up on the Schoeps sphere? It's still probably your best bet in the center. My suggestion for the steerable Blumlein was just intended for spotting soloists and adding a bit of focus if needed.