DAV BG-1U: Senn MKH8000 or Schoeps Mk21 series?

[88man]

In 4 months, I'll be recording myself in an acoustically treated hall (800 seats) on a Steinway D. I'd like to expand my palate of sound with a different Preamp and Mics. I am currently using the Avalon AD2022 with AKG C414B-XLS.

Program: Beethoven, Chopin, Rachmaninoff
Initial Setup: cardiods (ORTF-pair) and/or omnis (spaced pair)
Goal: subtle warmth and richness without loss of transparency. No treble sheen.

Questions:
1. Is there enough difference between the DAV BG-1U and Avalon AD2022 to warrant new purchase?

2. Recommendation for mics?... Considering the following:
-Sennheiser MKH8040, MKH8020
-Schoeps Mk21 series
-Schoeps CMC6/mk2
-Schoeps Mk4

Thanks

[jnorman]

1. there is some difference between those two preamps - whether you prefer one over the other is personal choice.

2. i would go with near-field omnis, like the cmc6/mk2 combo, or km131s. i havent used the mkh8020s, and cant find a freq response graph for them, so i dont know whether they are flat inthe near field, or whether they are flat at some middle distance - either way, they are probably very nice mics, as are the mkh20s. any of these true pressure omnis will give you a quite different sound than your 414s set to an omni pattern.

[Plush]

May I comment on both for you?

Performance and SOUND wise, the d.a.v. electronics BG range is a top class mic amp.
Avalon is an OK mic amp too, but it is mostly for looks. Get a BG mic amp and you have the Decca mic amp in your rig.

Even as a house of Schoeps mics here, I recommend the Senn. 8020 as a fantastic mic set for piano. There are several reasons I am converted to these mics specifically for piano recording.

1. They sound fantastic on piano--what ever they are doing is very complimentary for piano sound.

2. They are currently being introduced into the marketplace at attractive prices. They have a similar performance as the Schoeps range with a price reduction of 35-40%.

The other nite I used two 8020's with a BG to make a piano four hands live bcast. The output of the 8020 is quite high so I only needed a little gain on the BG. The sound was outstanding with heft and weight.

[JEGG]

OK, plush. Was this a live bc? And whether or not, where'd you put/point the mic's?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Plush]

Hello esteemed JEGG,

This was a live broadcast---the only reason I mention it is because I could not change or go back on my decision to use the specific set-up I chose. Of course I did take my balances during a sound check in the radio studio.

It was quite simple with the two 8020 mics on a AEA stereo bar spaced about 30 inches apart. They were just below lid high and pointed down towards the strings slightly. This was augmented with a Schoeps CMC52 omni inside the piano on the bass strings at the butt end.

The 8020 seems to offer a slightly rolled off treble sound that complimented this loud and robust sounding Steinway. The treble (right hand parts) were somewhat pounded out sounding when one was listening in the room. However, this did not sound objectionable as rendered by the mighty Zennheiser mics.

Another thing I like about these mics is that they render the low mid bass strings as a "bronzed sound"---like a Bosendoerfer piano sounds.
Why not have the sound of an Imperial Flugel?

By the way, I will be doing these live bcasts on Monday nites at 8PM (central time) for the rest of the year.
tune in at WFMT - Home

[nosebleedaudio]

The latest Yellowjackets CD "Life Cycle" used the MKH-800 twin on piano.
Check it out, sounds great to me..

[fifthcircle]

Plush (as usual) has said much of what I'd say...

I'm not a huge fan of Avalon pres. Their comps are great, but the pres never really did much for me. On the other side, I've been very happy with my DAV pres and I still use them regularly.

As for mics, your choice should be largely based on the sound of the instrument and the sound of the hall. In general, I like A-B pairs of omnis or subcardiods for piano. Not a fan of cardiods here for piano. That being said, you'll get great results with the Sennheisers, MK2 or MK21. They are all great, but all have different sounds. In general, I lean towards the MK21 as a favorite mic out there, but if the instrument and room aren't working with that mic, I put something else up.

In both cases (omnis and subcards), I will usually start with the mics about 6 feet out and about 2.5 or 3 feet wide. I position to what I'm hearing from the instrument. Sometimes I bring them in to aid the hammers on a soft instrument and sometimes they move out to give a more unified sound... It just depends.

--Ben

[hughesmr]

I'll second Plush here ... I've used MK21, MK2S and 8020 in this application. You really can't go wrong with any of them, but the 8020 really does impart the weight and "glow" of a good piano's sound with startling realism. I traded in a pr of QTC1 for 8020 and it was a wise wise move for me.

I also use the BG1 and while I can't offer a comparison to the Avalon, I will say that the DAV will get you fabulous bang for the buck. A top notch pre. Mine seemed to sound a little constrained when I first got it, but it seems to age like fine wine .... don't ask me why. Might be my ears, too...

[MBishopSFX]

Another vote for the MKH-8020s here. Quite nice on piano - classical or jazz. Between the two preamps, I'd choose the DAV, but would MUCH prefer the UpState Audio Sonic Lens 20/20. The commercial production units should be out very soon, I hear. Absolutely no comparison, especially on piano.

UpState Audio - Preserve Your Trusted Sound

[Plush]

Hello Michael,

Good news about the mic amp. Matt Lesko is a valued member of EARS here in Chicago and he has been talking about this mic amp for years. At our place here we have some Crookwood paintpots, a Gordon, a bunch of davs and the almighty Thermionic Culture Earlybird. Will one have to reach again in to the pocketbook to take another mic amp on board?

Your recommendation says, "yes."

[David Rick]

Originally Posted by MBishopSFX

Another vote for the MKH-8020s here. Quite nice on piano - classical or jazz. Between the two preamps, I'd choose the DAV, but would MUCH prefer the UpState Audio Sonic Lens 20/20. The commercial production units should be out very soon, I hear. Absolutely no comparison, especially on piano.

UpState Audio - Preserve Your Trusted Sound

I must say, the technical "explanation" on their web site is the silliest thing I've read all year. The only sense I can make of is that they are trying for flat group delay in the audio band. Well, who isn't?

If the circuit is really that novel and if it is patented, as they claim, then they should just post the schematic. (Or just list the patent number, and I can do the rest. )

OTOH, if the real point is the sound, they ought to just drop the scientific mumbo jumbo. Their famous users have great ears, and Chuck Ainlay has the best smile in pro audio. Ain't that enough?

David L. Rick

[88man]

Gentlemen, thank you ALL for the great advice as always. I've always been fascinated in the production of various timbres in sound, it's just recently that I've been getting involved in the recording aspect.

Michael, I'll keep my ears open for the Sonic Lens 20/20 for the future, but in the meantime, the DAV BG-1U is resonating well among all of you.

Plush, based on your threads, you seem to convey a unique ability to hear and characterize complex and sophisticated timbres when it comes to classical piano recording. That "bronzed sound" in the mid-bass is innate to German piano voicing - Grotrian, Feurich, Bosendorfer (Austrian). Steinway has it too, but it occurs in the lowest octaves with a grandiose "Chang" sound. I find this added harmonic content flattering to the point of sounding euphonic. Almost like the "tube amp" of pianos. The wood and metal frames under great tension produce those rich harmonics by projecting the vibrational energy. I think once the tension dissapates over a long time, then the piano sounds flat, dead, with no projection. That's why I'd never buy a very old piano, other than keeping the rebuilders busy...
Surely, I like to capture the noble "bronzed and euphonic" sound, and I'll probably go for the Senn MKH8020 for an omni pair.

What would be a good complimentary cardiod or wide cardiod mic to experiment in ORTF-pair, Senn MKH8040 or Schoeps MK21? Which has fuller bass?

Hughesmr, fifthcircle, jnorman thanks for the miking positions!

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by David Rick

I must say, the technical "explanation" on their web site is the silliest thing I've read all year. The only sense I can make of is that they are trying for flat group delay in the audio band. Well, who isn't?

If the circuit is really that novel and if it is patented, as they claim, then they should just post the schematic. (Or just list the patent number, and I can do the rest. )

OTOH, if the real point is the sound, they ought to just drop the scientific mumbo jumbo. Their famous users have great ears, and Chuck Ainlay has the best smile in pro audio. Ain't that enough?

David L. Rick

If it was me I would NOT post the schematic, why make it EASY for someone to rip off, if it is REALLY new...
Reminds me of something Dictaphone did many years ago with a truly unique and powerful design, NO schematic anywhere, and it was potted so you had to destroy the unit to see how it worked.
They were smart enough to NOT make it easy for the competitors..

What I dont like is the statement; "world's first ULTRA HIGH DEFINITION mic-pre"
And sure is taking them a LONG time to get it on the market...
Heard about it over a year ago...

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

What I dont like is the statement; "world's first ULTRA HIGH DEFINITION mic-pre"

Neither do I. I'm not very found of such nonsense.

Why no specs for distortion?

The noise figures says; "-133dB EIN"

Ok, i relation to what? dBu, dBV or dB below max output swing of the amp?

And then they go;

According to our world class beta testers, the results are not subtle.

Beta testers? You don't let beta testers guide the developement work of a piece of high performance audio gear. You use a panel in blind controlled listening tets.

A suitable microphone and a simple listening test should validate the unique, unparalleled sonic performance of the Sonic Lens.

No, first and foremost you investigate what the amp itself do to the signal in a blind bypass test.


Why is it that the audio industry on both sides of the storage medium has such a great lack of serious scinetifically oriented companies?

The amp may be good but I'm just sick and tired of all mumbo jumbo and snake oil.


/Peter

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Neither do I. I'm not very found of such nonsense.

Why no specs for distortion?

The noise figures says; "-133dB EIN"

Ok, i relation to what? dBu, dBV or dB below max output swing of the amp?

And then they go;




Beta testers? You don't let beta testers guide the developement work of a piece of high performance audio gear. You use a panel in blind controlled listening tets.



No, first and foremost you investigate what the amp itself do to the signal in a blind bypass test.


Why is it that the audio industry on both sides of the storage medium has such a great lack of serious scinetifically oriented companies?

The amp may be good but I'm just sick and tired of all mumbo jumbo and snake oil.


/Peter

Yeah, but how do your REALLY feel about it???
Lame specs...they must not be to proud of the specs...

[Audiop]

Hmm, you lost me there!


/Peter

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Hmm, you lost me there!


/Peter

Trying to be funny...
And my comment was not very clear, sorry...
I meant they must not be very proud of their specs; otherwise they would have posted COMPLETE specs and all the required variables and specifics.

[Audiop]

Ok! Sometimes I become a little insecure about humor and ironi and stuff since English is not my language.

Yea, as you wrote, if the pre is the best ever made, what's there to hide. Also as I mentioned, I always get a little casious when they can't even write the specs correct.. the few specs they show.


/Peter

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Ok! Sometimes I become a little insecure about humor and ironi and stuff since English is not my language.

Yea, as you wrote, if the pre is the best ever made, what's there to hide. Also as I mentioned, I always get a little casious when they can't even write the specs correct.. the few specs they show.


/Peter

It is easy to forget that we are from all areas of the planet, the terms we use are not always the same, and what may mean one thing to you may mean something else to me...
Where are you located Peter?
I like it when people have their location listed, makes it easier to suggest certain things, materials for example..I assume everyone has lumber in their area...

[ghellquist]

The patent is there for anyone to read. You should be able find it through Google Patents:
Powered transducer preamplifier with ... - Google Patents

What it seems to do is get away with the condensator (or transformer) in the signal path. This has of course been done lots of times already, just perhaps not exactly this way.

The effect should be that we do not get the phase shift from one condensator in the signal path. As there generally are lots of them in other places I cannot say this makes me especially impressed.

Regardless, this may be a very nice preamp and it might come at a really low price and in addition show itself to be really reliable in real-world usage. I guess I will wait a little while though before ordering one.

Gunnar

[nosebleedaudio]

The fact is every condenser mic (phantom powered) I can think of either uses caps or a transformer to couple the audio to the mic pre input.
IM aware that the fewer components the better BUT I would say a GOOD transformer based pre has a far better transformer than alot of mics I know of...
Don't see their circuit effecting that part at all...
Just my .02cents...

[Audiop]

I'm not that far from you Mike, :-) Stockholm.

Been to London a couple of times shopping guitar and flutes.

Ever been to Sweden?


/Peter

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by Audiop

I'm not that far from you Mike, :-) Stockholm.

Been to London a couple of times shopping guitar and flutes.

Ever been to Sweden?


/Peter

No but would love to, do you have a spare room? My wife and I are small. Ha Ha
This is one of the great things about the internet...get to meet/talk to people from all over...

[88man]

I have enough justification to go with the DAV BG-1U from your discussion over the language Upstate Audio is using about their preamp.

Can someone comment on a recommendation for a complimentary cardiod or wide cardiod pair that has a good bass response?...

[bove]

Originally Posted by 88man

I have enough justification to go with the DAV BG-1U from your discussion over the language Upstate Audio is using about their preamp.

Can someone comment on a recommendation for a complimentary cardiod or wide cardiod pair that has a good bass response?...

You'll find many people working happily with wide-cardioid pairs of Schoeps MK21. I'd recommend them for your situation.

As compared to the 8040, the MK21 could be said to have "more bass" in the sound. I use both.