Some advice on a rig.

[recordsmith]

Hello all,

I am new here, I have been lurking for a while now and I thought I would ask some questions. A little background, I have been remote recording now for 10 years. Classical... But I am branching out now... Basically putting my way through college making audition tapes and recording recitals/concerts. Well I am nearing the completion of my terminal degree and its time to upgrade my rig.

I am by myself when I record, so I have made a very portable multi-track rig. It is typical, MacBook Pro with a MOTU Traveler and mics. I have always focused on mics, so I have spent most of my money there, Neumann, AKG and Sennheiser.

I didn't do a lot of research when I went with the traveler and I think I am regretting it a little. I need 8 tracks and Firewire to my computer. So here is the question, should I go with pres and a simple interface, or an all in one?

I was thinking Onyx 800r pres with a Metric halo UNL-2. What do you guys think? I am on a budget, I am not sure I can afford much more then the Mackies.

Also, if I get the Mackies first then upgrade my interface later, will my sound quality go up? Or will the Traveler pull it down? I should have thought the traveler through, but alas I did not. I will say the Cue Mix is helpful though.

Anyway sorry for rambling... Any opinions would be great.

Thanks
Jon

[mh_bj]

Well, if you go with the Mackie Pre (via ADAT to the ULN-2, I assume), and the ULN-2, I don't think that you will miss the CueMix, as MIO Console can do way more...

Certainly the ULN-2 will be a major step up from the Traveller in both converter and preamp quality. I haven't listened to the Mackie.

One thing that is very cool about the ULN-2 is that you can apply character and processing to all the inputs, including the AES/SPDIF and the ADAT -- so the Mackie input channels will be first-class citizens in MIO Console....

Good luck with your upgrade!

[Allen Rowand]

I have the Onyx 800r- the pres are nowhere near the ULN-2, but they're very usable. A rig like you described is a good compromise; you get 2 "gold channel" pres for doing stereo recording or use as your main inputs and 8 good pres for drums, keys, etc. As B.J. mentioned you can apply all of the 2d processing to the 800r when you bus it in over ADAT.

Allen

[recordsmith]

Thanks guys for your input. I would be going ADAT into the MH ULN-2. I will say I am very excited to use the MIO console. The Cue Mix was one of the selling points of the Traveler for me.

So here is another question. Are the mackies the best I can get in this price range? How much more would I have to pay to get better pres? I am looking for 8 in a 1U package. I could go with 6 pres but I think it would be best to have 8. I would also like to have bult in ADAT only because I want to use the ULN-2 not the 2882. I just can't afford the 2882 right now.

It is hard to make desicions when most of the reviews for products come from comercial guys, and not Classical/Acoustical guys. I hope you can help I am about to take the plunge!
Thanks for kind advice!

Jon

[sonare]

I do 90% classical and owned the Onyx-- for about a week-- my ears felt sandpapered by the micpres. Do yourself a favor and buy a DAV Broadhurst Gardens BG8 (another 1U piece) and a ULN2882. Fabulous for anything for about $3k for both last I looked. And you will never think about ditching the rig for something with more bells and whistles, because the current MIO software does more that you can even imagine at this point.

The reason I suggest 2882 rather than ULN2 is that the ULN is limited to 2 micpres and the 2882 are not quiet/good enough for classical. With the 2882 you have 8 channels of either line in (+4 and -10) and hi-Z. Unless I misunderstand the ULN2 inputs you cannot put 8 channels into it.

If this is more than you can do now, get the 2882 and a 2-ch mic pre that is decent quality that you can later sell and get the BG8. You would still have 6 more channels that would work fine with spot mics at lower levels.

The ADAT bit is confusing-- ADAT is very useful when feeding a backup-- an HD24 from a MH device, for example. Why are you going in ADAT?

Remember that real pro-quality gear will retain about 80% of it's value, which is handy when you want to upgrade. Looked at another way-- the interest on the BG8 with a credit card doesn't look bad in comparison to what you lose when doing a sell the budget stuff and buy the pro line, and you'll have 8 channels of first-class sound from the getgo.

Metric Halo offers sound-quality and flexibility that is unsurpassed, not to mention free software and support. You will not regret the purchase.

Rich

[recordsmith]

I do 90% classical and owned the Onyx-- for about a week-- my ears felt sandpapered by the micpres.

Thanks Rich this is exactly what I was looking for!

Do yourself a favor and buy a DAV Broadhurst Gardens BG8 (another 1U piece) and a ULN2882.

I looked these up in google, are there any US distributors? Or do i have to buy from DAV? That is something I am finding while searching for pro gear. I am not sure where to buy it. Sweetwater sure doesn't have it!

I have also read about the Line Audio from sweeden. How do those stack up to the DAV? Looks like I need a little more research.. But the MH is good to go!

The ADAT bit is confusing-- ADAT is very useful when feeding a backup-- an HD24 from a MH device, for example. Why are you going in ADAT?

I was thinking about ADAT for the ability digitally to the FW interface. IF the pres have an ADAT out I can use the smaller ULN-2 expanded and keep all of the analog inputs open for other things. But this seems moot as the pro gear doesn't seem to combine these two functions.

One last thing, does anyone know why the pres in the 2882 are worse then the ULN-2. Why wouldn't they be the same? I mean this is what I have read, not from experience.

Thanks again for all the help!

-Jon

[sonare]

Jon.

First, you buy the DAV stuff direct from the designer/builder, Mick Hinton. See his website:

D.A.V. electronics

As for the pres in 2882 vs ULN2-- they are different generations, and hence different design and performance. The 2882 aren't BAD-- they simply aren't quiet enough for classical mains use. Unfortunately there are only TWO in the ULN-2.

THe 2882 is a veritable audio Swiss army knife with FW, ADAT, AES, analog I/O up to 24/96. And with the new software you are in for a fun ride!

I have never heard of "Line Audio" but unless your micpres/ADC are on a level with Cranesong/Millennia Media etc you will be doing yourself no favors to pass their signal into a MH device (or anything else) via ADAT.

The Mytek "bigrig" ADC is not very different from the "smallrig" 2882 ADC, BTW.

Rich

[recordsmith]

Thanks for the info. I really appreciate it!

I have spent the last two hours reading all of the DAV posts, even one about noise where it got very heated. They seem to be well loved. And that is good enough to give them a go.

I think we can consider this case closed. Now I have to pull the money together.

Thanks for everyone's comments.

Jon

[junior]

Originally Posted by recordsmith

One last thing, does anyone know why the pres in the 2882 are worse then the ULN-2. Why wouldn't they be the same? I mean this is what I have read, not from experience.

Hi, Jon. I would think the biggest difference between the two is the amount of gain. AFAIK, the ULN-2 pres are similar to the 2882 but have more gain due to the analog pots (whereas the 2882 uses digital pots that yield less gain). Maybe BJ can chime in here.

BTW, if you're using higher-output mics, I'd opt for the 2882 and get all 8 pres in one good sounding box. Just a thought...

[Allen Rowand]

The 2882 was our first interface design, and offers 42dB of gain. However once you start approaching the upper end of that gain, things start to get noisy. Users said that this wouldn't work for classical and acoustic recording, and makes it difficult to use ribbon mics. So B.J. designed the Ultra Low Noise mic pre that offers 72dB of clean gain and thus was born the ULN-2.

It all depends on what you're recording; I use the 2882 all the time for audio analysis, but I'm working in high spl environments where I'm analyzing the PA systemand not the room. I tend to record "electric" music, so I'm either being given a line level signal or am working with close mic'd and/or amplified signals. The 2882 is great for this- I haven't met a drum kit it couldn't tame.

If I was recording an acoustic ensemble or anything where I wanted the "air" of the room, it'd be ULN-2. I particularly like the sound of the Jensen version.

That's why we see more people starting to get one of each box- ULN-2 for stereo, 2882 for louder signals and both together for 2 "gold" channels and 8 "silver" channels.

Allen

[theDBC]

Originally Posted by recordsmith

Hello all,

I am new here, I have been lurking for a while now and I thought I would ask some questions. A little background, I have been remote recording now for 10 years. Classical... But I am branching out now... Basically putting my way through college making audition tapes and recording recitals/concerts. Well I am nearing the completion of my terminal degree and its time to upgrade my rig.

I am by myself when I record, so I have made a very portable multi-track rig. It is typical, MacBook Pro with a MOTU Traveler and mics. I have always focused on mics, so I have spent most of my money there, Neumann, AKG and Sennheiser.

I didn't do a lot of research when I went with the traveler and I think I am regretting it a little. I need 8 tracks and Firewire to my computer. So here is the question, should I go with pres and a simple interface, or an all in one?

I was all for MOTU until I started using the products. I have an 896HD, 828 mkII and an UltraLite. The UltraLite will randomly inject digital noise on random channels. (The Traveler is reported to have the same issue.) Right now I am saving up for RME. I have spoken to several owners and have read a lot of reviews, it looks like a solid line, particularly the Fireface 800
RME: Fireface 800
It has 8 analog in and out, 4 of them have mic pres, firewire 400 and 800, and midi- just for fun.
The price is the only thing holding me back. Need to sell the MOTU gear and I should be ready to go.

[recordsmith]

First I want to apologize for my indecision, I am cursed with the need to research things to death before I make a decision. When I don't, I end up with things like the Traveler... You know I never thought that it would be this hard for me make a decision! So bear with me, and feel free to tell stop bothering you all!

Now that I understand the differences between the two MH units, I think I can make a better decision. I have contacted Mick at DAV and got the price list. And I see the price of admission... not as high as I thought but close. So I am now thinking would 2 channels of DAV and 6 of 2882 be equivalent to 2 of ULN and 8 of Mackie...

I guess the question is, are the pres of the 2882 better then that of lower priced pres... I am thinking that the answer is: yes you dumby, but it never hurts to ask. Either way it looks like my sennheiser 8020's are going to have to wait till later.

Again thanks for allthe help I appreciate ever post.
-jon

[junior]

Originally Posted by recordsmith

I guess the question is, are the pres of the 2882 better then that of lower priced pres... I am thinking that the answer is: yes you dumby, but it never hurts to ask.

I'd put it this way: if you paid $1600 for a 2882, you'd be paying $200 per channel. At that price, I'd say it's more than worth it. If you shop around, you can find them for even less than that.

[Mulmany]

If you want a DIY "DAV BG1" go with a kit from Fivefishstudios.com.

You can get 4 pre's in a 1u rack for around $600. They are quiet, high gain - 72dB, and ultra linear. They sound amazing.

I built 4 with no problems at all. They are really well put together, no need to know how to read resistor color codes, and save you a ton of money. That way you can put your money into a good interface with good converters and a stable low jitter clock.

[recordsmith]

DIY Mic pres? Sounds interesting I think i will have to look into that. I love building things.

Another quick MH question. I see that there are both a 2882 expanded and one that is not, an older version I would think. Is the only difference the 2D card? Are there others that I should be aware of when looking to buy. In fact are there any issue that may have plagued earlier version of the equipment?

Also if I happen to find a used DAV are there any issue that I should be aware of?

Thanks again, I wish I had found this forum years ago, I would have be much better informed.

[sonare]

RE DIY micpres-- yes, it will save money, but so will DIY surgery-- but there is a qualitative difference, namely the talent of Mick Hinton and the sound he gave to Decca and now to the BG range. If you want THAT sound, DIY is not the way.

As for an older 2882-- that is really the way to go to save $$. I really do not take advantage of the 2D card. The bulletproof interface and superb ADC are all there. And contrary to the implication above, you will not find a jitter problem in any MH gear nor reason to complain about the pres. The mics make the sound in classical, anyway.

Before you go for a BG1U, cost out the per-channel price, because sooner or later I promise you will be buying a BG8.

Not to dis anyone, but in audio (as in most of life) you will NOT get more than you pay for.

Rich

[valleysound]

Buy once, cry once!

Get Mackie out of the equation!tutt

[Allen Rowand]

Originally Posted by recordsmith

Another quick MH question. I see that there are both a 2882 expanded and one that is not, an older version I would think. Is the only difference the 2D card? Are there others that I should be aware of when looking to buy. In fact are there any issue that may have plagued earlier version of the equipment?

In the beginning…
There were 2 versions of the interfaces: non +dsp and +dsp (which had a second dsp chip installed and the software license for the plug-ins). With the introduction of 2d, every new interface has a 2d card and can have the +dsp license added via software unlock.

If you purchase a non +dsp interface used, you can add a 2d card and buy a software license to access the +dsp plugs if you want them. If you buy a used +dsp box you can add a 2d card, and that uses the +dsp license already in the box.

Older boxes could be finicky about ADAT connections; some devices worked fine with them, others not so much. All 2d boxes (including ones that are upgraded) have a new optical board which eliminates the optical issues some people had, as well as letting the optical port be switched between ADAT and Toslink 2 channel.

Rich, all of the mixers you've built are running on 2d, so you use it more than you think! But I understand that you're not using it for processing. It's a good thing to bring up- even if you don't think you'll use the dsp in our interfaces for signal processing, 2d gives you many other features: dsp based monitor control, multiple multichannel busses, M/S decoding for monitoring stereo mics, an incredibly flexible mixer environment and the bulletproof optical port.

While the +dsp option may not be for everyone, I think 2d is a no brainer.

Allen

[recordsmith]

Again thanks,

I agree with the sentiments above, you do not get more then you pay for. And as my dad always said, "You can't dig a hole without a shovel!" But knowing all the options helps make the most informed decision. I am looking at a used 2882 and have 0 information on it at this time but it is good to know that I can install the 2D card, for the MIO dsp, later when it is needed or even right now.

I would never assume that DIY preamps and DAVs would be the same. I am sure that Mick is an artist like everyone of us and he gives it a certian sound. I don't know if I want the Decca sound, but I sure will go and listen and see.

Yes you are right Rich, I will want the BG8 sooner or later, but as you said before the resale value of DAV is high even if I do sell it. Looking in the Classified section I see at least 8 people looking for a used BG1 right now.

Anyhoo... I am really excited I am almost there, I have to wait for the seller to contact me about the 2882 and then I will be off and running.

Thanks for all the help! I will be sure to post clips of my next gig with all this new equipment. And now it is time to go teach.

--Jon

[Mulmany]

Well I hate to say it but the markup value of my 4 SC-1's from FiveFishStudios is over $800 a channel. Components only cost so much. You are paying for the name, research, assembly, and packaging of all High end gear. Does the price for assembly and packaging really make the unit any better? How about the money spent on promotion and trade shows? Does it make the same resistors, capacitors, and IC's any better? Get off the market driven high horse and see that you pay for everything else plus the good components in any given design.

[echoromeo]

Originally Posted by Allen Rowand

In the beginning…


Older boxes could be finicky about ADAT connections; some devices worked fine with them, others not so much. All 2d boxes (including ones that are upgraded) have a new optical board which eliminates the optical issues some people had, as well as letting the optical port be switched between ADAT and Toslink 2 channel.

Rich, all of the mixers you've built are running on 2d, so you use it more than you think! But I understand that you're not using it for processing. It's a good thing to bring up- even if you don't think you'll use the dsp in our interfaces for signal processing, 2d gives you many other features: dsp based monitor control, multiple multichannel busses, M/S decoding for monitoring stereo mics, an incredibly flexible mixer environment and the bulletproof optical port.

While the +dsp option may not be for everyone, I think 2d is a no brainer.

Allen

I am in a position where I am shopping for a new interface as well. I like the idea of having the uln2 + an external 8pre's via the ADAT. Can the uln2 handle 12 inputs at one time @96 kHz (2 built in pre's + 8 Adat + 2 s/pdif or Aes)?

On the broadhurst discussion: I used the BG2 for years on classical ensembles. It is a beautiful preamp..

Thanks.

[Allen Rowand]

Originally Posted by echoromeo

I am in a position where I am shopping for a new interface as well. I like the idea of having the uln2 + an external 8pre's via the ADAT. Can the uln2 handle 12 inputs at one time @96 kHz (2 built in pre's + 8 Adat + 2 s/pdif or Aes)?

Unfortunately, you can't get 8 channels of 96k on ADAT; the best you could do would be 4. If you work at 44.1 or 48, no problem.

Allen

[resound]

Not to steer the direction away from MH, but has anyone compared the conversion of the MH products and the Apogee Ensemble? Bear in mind the application would be acoustic/classical music and nothing pop-oriented. Are they similar or does one shine over the other?

[sonare]

I will admit up front to not using Apogee-- but from knowledgeable classical colleagues who have the odds are that you would hear a difference in the sound of the units. I hesitate to call something "colored" unless my own ears have reached that conclusion, but even that is a biased supposition-- after all, they are MY ears and not YOURS. That said, I think you would find the MH more neutral. Again, in classical 90% of the sound is the mics-- maybe more.

I can say that the MH software is more dependable than any other I have ever used, and that includes my DAW software that was $3k. NEVER a freeze or crash with non-beta stuff. If there were, the box itself continues to send out sound to your backup without the computer. One nice thing is that MH software (and updates) are FREE.

Another item is that if you want to record at 96 AND want to back up at 96, get the HD24XR and go in analog rather than ADAT. The likelihood of having to use those tracks is pretty low. I have the old non-XR and the few times I have had to use it no one (and I am talking clients with EARS) heard a difference.

Rich

[resound]

My impression having not done a side by side is that the Apogee is colored based on others comments, though I'd always welcome another opinion.

How do you compare the conversion of the MH to your Mytek? I was considering the 8x192 before, but am also thinking about a pair of 8020 (darn Schoeps price increase), so maybe the MH would meet my needs for improved conversion, I lose my current interface, and be just as happy for it.

[sonare]

[QUOTE=VukOnCrack;3610394How do you compare the conversion of the MH to your Mytek? I was considering the 8x192 before, [/QUOTE]

I can't say I did a real close comparison, but I can say I did not hear anything I did not like with 8 channels of 2882 conversion.

I can definitely say that you better hope your Mytek never has to go back for service-- that is NOT a happy experience in any way.

Rich

[resound]

Egh... that seems to be the general consensus out there about Mytek. The MH is gaining points with me.

[recordsmith]

Hello Again,

I think what puts the 2882, mind I have never heard it, is the MIO. Really I am sure the Apogee sounds great. OR that could be market hype also... But when it comes to recording to computer, stability is the key. That is why I use a MAC and that is why I am going to go with the MH. Rock solid is the key. I am not sure how things become industry standard, which I have been told Apogee is, but it is not always because it is better. I mean just look at PT. No offense intended...

As for the DAV and fishfive, are we sure that the components are exactly the same? This is only a thought, not an acusation on any side. I just think to some extent there is an art to electronics, I mean in my labs we all used the same components and same design and all came out with somewhat different results. If that happens with simple EE labs I am sure it can happen in the Mic Pre market. It is possible that Mick knows what he is looking for wen he is testing and thus getting a better product. But to tell you the truth as soon as I defend my dissertation I will get some of those FishFive kits and compare. We will see what happens, I do wish they made a 2ch box that wasn't rack mounted. Not sure I can ake a box...

Oh, and just to clarify, the reason the ULN-2 doesn't support 8 ADAT 96khz. Is the fault of the standard. ADAT was built to be a 44.1 or 48Khz transfer standard. So to get more bandwidth you have to have more ADAT lines. I am sure you guys already knew this. I just got done teaching it so I thought I would pas it on.

-Jon

[recordsmith]

Hello again,

I thought I would ask those of you who have DAV pres. How much was the import tax? Or Duty. Mick mentioned that I would be responsible for them, but I can't find out what they might be. I have never thought about this. Possibly because I have never bought something so expensive from overseas.

Thoughts?

[Jimbo]

I own two 2882s, and I have owned a ULN2, so I am definitely in the MH camp. I can thank sonare for this affliction

However, I do wonder if the Ensemble might be better price/performance for your needs. The mic amps in the Ensemble use the same all-in-one, high gain, low noise mic amp chip as the Prism Orpheus. This would give you everything you need in one box.

I miss my ULN2....it's a damn convenient box!