Classical Piano: A "Larger than life sound" Preamp-Mic

[88man]

What mic-preamp combination could yield a "larger than life sound", lush, and a richer bass response WITHOUT ALTERING THE TONALITY of the instrument?

I am looking to expand upon my current palate of sound for recording classical piano... I am already using the AKG C414B-XLS mics in wide cardiod mode through an Avalon Design AD2022 preamp into a Yamaha CDR1000. This combination sounds modern - transparent, tonally neutral, but rather dry and lifeless. The piano is a 7ft Steinway B in a 35x14x8.5ft living room with little acoustic treatment - so it's bright. Total ambient volume is 6,000cu.ft. Currently, the mics are placed 3ft from the curve of the piano about 5ft high and spaced 10in apart in XY. I will continue to experiment with mic placement and treat the room after getting a larger rug.

I thought a tube mic might work, so I mated the Rode K2 with the Avalon preamp. The bass improved, but at the expense of some muddiness and a "nasal" midrange - clearly the wrong tonal character to the instrument! So, I thought I'd consult the forum for ideas.

What is the sonic signature of the D.A.V. BG 1U?...
Is there enough difference between the D.A.V. BG 1U and Avalon AD2022 to justify purchase?...
How about Millenia M-2B Tube Preamp?...
Neumann M149 or Brauner Valvet mics?...
Any other ideas for Preamp-Mic combination?...

Thanks

[newyorker42]

I assume you mean timbre and not tonality. If you want to emphasize something that is not in the source, then you will be altering the timbre.

That said, as a composer/pianist, I find it hard to believe there is not enough bass present in a Steinway B, if the piano is well prepared. You just need to figure out why your setup is not capturing it.

Try putting the mics in omni mode so as not to lose bass response due to cardioid low frequency proximity effects.

As an aside, I've never heard of using the mic pattern you've chosen in an XY config.

[idylldon]

Originally Posted by 88man

The piano is a 7ft Steinway B in a 35x14x8.5ft living room with little acoustic treatment - so it's bright. Total ambient volume is 6,000cu.ft. Currently, the mics are placed 3ft from the curve of the piano about 5ft high and spaced 10in apart in XY. I will continue to experiment with mic placement and treat the room after getting a larger rug.

First do some acoustic research and treatment (check out the Studio Building forum for links), and I'd keep the floor live and the then work to deaden the ceiling somewhat (or not, depending on what you hear). An 8.5' ceiling is not ideal by any stretch of the imagination, but it can work if you make it "invisible," which usually means some acoustic treatment. A LOT of the sound from a piano comes from underneath, so putting a rug under the piano wouldn't be my first choice in a room this size.

I thought a tube mic might work, so I mated the Rode K2 with the Avalon preamp. The bass improved, but at the expense of some muddiness and a "nasal" midrange - clearly the wrong tonal character to the instrument! So, I thought I'd consult the forum for ideas.

The bass won't improve until you do some bass trapping. While it might seem counter intuitive, bass trapping will help to clear up standing waves in the low frequencies and this will result in clearer, more well-defined bass response.

I wouldn't put another penny into gear until you get the room as good as it can be. I have a 9' Steinway D in my room and it never sounded "right" until I did the acoustic treatment. Now it sounds FANTASTIC and well balanced IF the player knows how to balance the left against the right. MANY players who aren't used to such a wonderful bass response tend to get carried away and then overwhelm the right hand with the left.

Cheers,
--
Don

[soupking]

Awesome post! stike

Originally Posted by idylldon

First do some acoustic research and treatment (check out the Studio Building forum for links), and I'd keep the floor live and the then work to deaden the ceiling somewhat (or not, depending on what you hear). An 8.5' ceiling is not ideal by any stretch of the imagination, but it can work if you make it "invisible," which usually means some acoustic treatment. A LOT of the sound from a piano comes from underneath, so putting a rug under the piano wouldn't be my first choice in a room this size.



The bass won't improve until you do some bass trapping. While it might seem counter intuitive, bass trapping will help to clear up standing waves in the low frequencies and this will result in clearer, more well-defined bass response.

I wouldn't put another penny into gear until you get the room as good as it can be. I have a 9' Steinway D in my room and it never sounded "right" until I did the acoustic treatment. Now it sounds FANTASTIC and well balanced IF the player knows how to balance the left against the right. MANY players who aren't used to such a wonderful bass response tend to get carried away and then overwhelm the right hand with the left.

Cheers,
--
Don

[jnorman]

if what you stated about your mic setup is actually the case, your main problem could easily stem from that. using cardioids in an XY setup where the mics are 10" apart can cause significant phase issues that can result in all kinds of wierd EQ-related issues. and contrary to an above comment about the omni setting on the 414, only "true pressure" omni mics are free from proximity effect. a 414, like all dual diaphragm multi-pattern mics, creates a faux omni by combining a pair of oppositely facing cardioid capsules - all mics like this are still "pressure gradient" mics, and still exhibit proximity effect.

you should consider some very flat-response small diameter capsule condensers, like schoeps cmc6/mk2 omnis, or km131s, or DPA 4006 with near-field grids - or as close to that as you can afford reasonably. i would stick to omnis, unless your room has some objectionable early reflections, but i would probably use a placement just outside of the lip of the piano. there is a nice photo on the DPA website showing a setup of a pair of 4006s on a grand piano - that is a good starting point.

[willi1203]

First I would try a "ORTF like" setup in wide cardio, starting at 25 cm between mics, 90 degrees....

[Corran]

I agree that your choice of mics and their positions is probably hindering your sound. The acoustics of your room might also be a factor, but I'll assume you like the way the piano sounds in the room so maybe not?

If the mics are 10" apart your setup is most definitely not X-Y, more like just spaced cardioids. Try them in true X-Y (one over the other) and a little closer, that might improve things. I have used cardioids with much success on piano, but they were well inside of the crook.

[Plush]

It sounds like it sounds. The source and the room are making the sound, not the microphones.

From what you describe the room is a poor place to record that piano.
It probably has what is known as the "small room sound."

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by idylldon

First do some acoustic research and treatment (check out the Studio Building forum for links), and I'd keep the floor live and the then work to deaden the ceiling somewhat (or not, depending on what you hear). An 8.5' ceiling is not ideal by any stretch of the imagination, but it can work if you make it "invisible," which usually means some acoustic treatment. A LOT of the sound from a piano comes from underneath, so putting a rug under the piano wouldn't be my first choice in a room this size.

I would do the exact opposite. You want the ceiling to diffuse not absorb sound in an already small room. Add reflecting disruptions to the ceiling or buy and fit some diffusers.

The reflections from the soundboard under the piano you do want to deaden because they are difficult to control and record well. A persian rug is a godsend here and can be moved around.

Plush is spot on, it sounds like the room is beyond help, find another with a decent volume, ie a concert hall, to get the sound you describe in the title of this thread.

[88man]

Thank you all for your great responses to my first thread! I recognize some venerable names and I am truly humbled by your sound advice!

Piano: The 1985 Steinway B was previously owned by a Steinway technician and is in pristine condition both tonally and mechanically - prodigious bass, clear mids, and bell-like highs. The sound is harmonically complex, rich, lush, and has that characteristic double-reed like sound in the melodic registers. I traveled 1000 miles to find it! So the source is there...

Room: I'll be getting a larger oriental rug that will cover 80% of the exposed floor. The rug will not be going under the piano. The space is an open floor plan with the dining room and foyer forming an "L" - the piano is at the vertex of the "L." The space is quite reverberant, but has some nodes. After the rug, I have to selectively place diffusers on the ceiling and absorption panels on the walls, and bass traps as suggested by your responses. I know it's not a concert hall - it's my home and I bought it with the intent of using this fairly large area (6000cu.ft.) for a music room.

I stand corrected, the mics are spaced cardiods - 10in apart, angled 45deg, placed 3ft from curve and 5ft high. Omni was picking too much room and I was hearing an altered tone from the 414s in my room; that's why I am using them in wide cardiod, but can't capture the bass.

After my attempt in improving the acoustics, the DPA 4006, Eathworks QTC40, or Avenson STO-2 were on my list.

At some point, I'd like to expand the sound palate perhaps with a more "larger than life" sounding preamp than the Avalon - almost tube-like in euphonics, but without any nasal midrange. Any suggestions for a preamp when I want to record at the university concert hall?

Thanks

[fifthcircle]

I'm a big fan of spaced omnis or wide-cardiods for classical piano work. However, these will only yield you the sound you're looking for if you make sure the room can support it (as Don mentioned in his earlier post).

I usually reach for either DPA 4006 or Schoeps MK2 or MK21. Sennheiser MKH800 is also another pretty spectacular piano mic. When mating it with pres, it really depends on the instrument and the room. My go to pre for the high-end stuff I record is my set of Vac Rac pres. Huge sound, even from top to bottom. Mates well with just about all mics. I'm also a fan of the Millennia tube pre and the EAR. In the solid state world, I like A Designs Pacifica, API, DAV, older Millennia (HV-3B), etc... There are lots of quality pres and mics out there- just depends on the sound you're going for.

In the end, though, if the instrument and room aren't up to snuff, your sound won't be either...

--Ben

[Gaston69]

On my website I have posted a recording which I made recently in Paris from a fine Pianist called Arthur Ancelle.

Gaston

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by 88man

What mic-preamp combination could yield a "larger than life sound", lush, and a richer bass response WITHOUT ALTERING THE TONALITY of the instrument?

I think you're looking for "big" in all the wrong places. All a microphone can give you is a different frequency response, and I'm sure you already have an EQ. And all a microphone preamp can give you is coloration in the form of frequency response (EQ again) or intentional distortion. Neither of these make things sound larger.

To me, the size of a sound is a direct function of early reflections from nearby (or more distant) reflecting surfaces. This is an acoustics issue, but it can also be created electronically.

Diffusion can be used close to a sound source to increase clarity, and I demonstrate that in my video All About Diffusion, about halfway down the RealTraps Videos page. But good diffusion costs a lot more than good absorption. Since absorption can also help make an instrument sound larger many people use absorption instead of diffusion. If you think about it, a ceiling that absorbs 100 percent is acoustically equal to a ceiling that's infinitely high. Either way, the sound goes up and never comes back.

The reason instruments recorded in small rooms sound small is because of the nearby reflecting boundaries. The close proximity makes the reflections very early, and also very strong. So adding absorption nearby, like on a low ceiling over a drum set or piano, actually makes the sound larger by reducing the strength of those early reflections.

--Ethan

[88man]

Thank you all for sharing your collective experiences!

Ethan, I've actually read your 8/2007 acoustic design essay, and I've also been thinking about your response... There is no way of escaping or disguising the room electronically in its relatively untreated condition. I may even have to abandon the goal of achieving a "larger than life" sound as Plush stated. If possible, I would be content to be able to use omni pattern mics than resorting to cardiods.

The piano is in the living room and is at the vertex of an "L" shape space where through a 10ft opening in the wall, the dining room forms the other leg of the "L." The dining room and foyer provide additional ambiance. The entire floor is an open layout with open archways to other rooms, so it's more like an acoustic labyrinth.

Since the piano and mics are in the living room, do I need to treat the dining room too which is further away?

Would you treat early and late type reflections differently relative to the piano source?

What acoustic design would be appropriate for my room dimensions - absorption or diffusion?... Where and how many panels?

I may have to eventually call RealTraps on this...

Thank you!

[Gaston69]

jljlj

[joelpatterson]

The piano "sounds like it sounds," but to leave it at that is to ignore that the recording process is not simply a photocopy... it's an active process that can paint the daytime black, blue, aqua, teal, or any combination of colors.

The attempt to modify the room acoustics is a noble cause, but again, you don't need a suit of armor and a horse covered in chain mail to get the job done.

I contend with ghastly and garish room acoustics all the time, and I don't just turn to the music director and say, "Look, this room is less than ideal, WHADDAYA WANT?" I come up with a strategy to minimize the limitations and heighten the positives.

What works alot of times is with the piano open full stick, you put two tube mics (I've got Sputniks, I'm not sure if the K2 is in the same league) hovering about eight inches over the ribs of the harp-- one up near the hammers on the treble side, one down near the narrow end for the bass, in omni. This gives a full throated, humming, detailed and crisp rendition of the playing, and then some kind of ribbon or something a few feet out from the box, for a thick, overall reading of the sound. Or, this mic might be underneath the piano. It's your "reverb," essentially.

Even then-- the game is won or lost in the mixing. You need to pay close attention to the effect you're getting on playback, and keep nudging slight bits of applied compression and EQ until you get what you're after. Remember that all is fair, and also remember it's best that the artist need never know how manipulated things were to finally achieve a natural, transparent result.

[88man]

Joel, very intriguing that the M-Audio Sputniks have the kind of neutral and transparent tonal character that would make them ideal for piano... Unlike the nasal sounding Rode K2s - even with a MP of NOS 1964 Siemens A-Phi code "CCA" ECC88 tubes installed! The tubes are soldered on the Sputnik, making it difficult to roll tubes. How do the stock tubes sound?

It would be a welcome attribute to have the fullness and richess of a tube mic without the undesirable "colors" that most tube mics impart on pianos. I am finding that the most desirable qualities for piano mics are transparency for neutrality, and fast transient response for timbral accuracy.

Thanks Joel for sharing your unique approach to miking pianos. With a DAV BG-1U on order, and with my current Avalon AD2022, I'll now have 4-channels to work with - plenty to try it that extra "reverb" channel(s) under the piano. With the room that I have, it might just work out!

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by 88man

... How do the stock tubes sound?

Very, very groovy-- beefy low end with an agile midrange and sparkling top. Here's a sample of the pair on a Steinway from a concert last weekend:

[88man]

I've always been fascinated with tube "technology."

Thanks Joel for posting the sample of the Sputniks pair. They do sound fuller in all registers - bass, mids, and highs (compared with the Rode K2s or my "fat-free" sound of the C414s). I hear more tonal texture which could work well for improvisatory sessions on the piano.

[didier.brest]

On my website I have posted a recording which I made recently in Paris from a fine Pianist called Arthur Ancelle.

Hi Gaston,

Great sound! Could you tell us what microphones and what setting ? (Sounds like thae would be inside the piano or close to the rim quite apart one from other one ?)

Didier

[Gaston69]

I used a pair DPA4060 (38cm apart from each other) into a Paintpot Crookwood mic preamp.
The mic stand was about 1 meter away from the piano at a height of 1.6m

Gaston

[didier.brest]

thank you very much for your answer, Gaston

1 m ? I would have expected more reverberation at such a distance, undoubtedly because my experience is limited to my living room:
Microphones shootout eSnips Folder

Didier

[ghellquist]

88man, a few thoughts.

Don´t go down the road of cheap tube microphones. Really good tube microphones are exactly that -- really good. The cheap one sounds worse than same price mics without tubes. (How is that for starting a debate). Most of the low-priced large diameter tube mics are aimed at improving male voices anyway as most hobbyists are recording themselves.

You are on the right track in my book when looking at the DPA4006. These are really nice mics, but they come at a high price. In this class of mics there are several more to choose from. Examples are the various Schoeps MK2 capsules, Sennheiser MKH20 or MKH8020, Neumann KM140 series, Earthworks and so one. These are all "true" omni microphones and as such behave roughly similarily. There are differences in sound between them but for a first test any of them will point the way. After that you can go down into the details.

What you want to do is to start to make the piano sound good in the room. Let someone else play and go around and listen. If you find a spot that sounds really good to your ears, there is where you should put the microphones. Surprises will await you in this process.

Next step is to rent or borrow a pair of true omnis and experiment with them. Renting a weekend can be surprisingly affordable.

// GUnnar

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by 88man

What mic-preamp combination could yield a "larger than life sound", lush, and a richer bass response WITHOUT ALTERING THE TONALITY of the instrument?

I am looking to expand upon my current palate of sound for recording classical piano... I am already using the AKG C414B-XLS mics in wide cardiod mode through an Avalon Design AD2022 preamp into a Yamaha CDR1000. This combination sounds modern - transparent, tonally neutral, but rather dry and lifeless. The piano is a 7ft Steinway B in a 35x14x8.5ft living room with little acoustic treatment - so it's bright. Total ambient volume is 6,000cu.ft. Currently, the mics are placed 3ft from the curve of the piano about 5ft high and spaced 10in apart in XY. I will continue to experiment with mic placement and treat the room after getting a larger rug.

I thought a tube mic might work, so I mated the Rode K2 with the Avalon preamp. The bass improved, but at the expense of some muddiness and a "nasal" midrange - clearly the wrong tonal character to the instrument! So, I thought I'd consult the forum for ideas.

What is the sonic signature of the D.A.V. BG 1U?...
Is there enough difference between the D.A.V. BG 1U and Avalon AD2022 to justify purchase?...
How about Millenia M-2B Tube Preamp?...
Neumann M149 or Brauner Valvet mics?...
Any other ideas for Preamp-Mic combination?...

Thanks

Why do you think that Mic-Preamp combinations, Neumann vs Brauner tube and other questions of that type matter, when you try to record a Steinway B in an average untreated living room with a 8.5ft ceiling?

What are you trying to achieve with the rug?

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Very, very groovy-- beefy low end with an agile midrange and sparkling top. Here's a sample of the pair on a Steinway from a concert last weekend:

Sounds nice

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Good topic.

One of the most important things to get right when recording piano is to make sure the piano is well tuned and well regulated. A lot of problems can be circumvented with a properly setup piano.

My favorite way to record piano in a concert hall is to use a Decca Tree setup with three AT 4050 microphones in omni pattern. I almost always put a blanket, a moving blanket or the piano cover under the piano. I have also used two DPA 4006s as well as taking the cover off the piano and using a pair of AKG 451 (original model with cannon plug) over the strings. I have recorded Yamaha, Steinway and a Bösendorfer Model 290 Imperial with 97 keys (wow that is one GREAT sounding piano). I have also recorded piano with two AKG Blueline cardioid microphones over the 2nd and 5th tone holes in the plate for a contemporary piano/singer duo recording.

The most important thing as others have pointed out is the room the piano is being recorded in. If you try and do a recording of a Steinway in a small room it will sound like a Steinway recorded in a small room and there are no real "tricks" to make it sound bigger.

Best of luck to the OP and you have gotten a lot of really good advice on this subject from a lot of talented people. Hope your next recording is what you want.

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

...
The most important thing as others have pointed out is the room the piano is being recorded in. If you try and do a recording of a Steinway in a small room it will sound like a Steinway recorded in a small room and there are no realy"tricks" to make it sound bigger.

thumbsup +1
Probably the most elegant way out of this dilemma is to record very close a la "larger than life of a mouse hiding inside the piano sound" as was also demonstrated here. Then sell this sound as the new "peak of perfection". Make them want that "if the support for the lid fails my head will be cut off and the piano become a bloody mess" sound. Or you could more positively market it as the new "and next week we will record another two octaves sound"

alternatives for marketing:
"being inside a Steinway B"
"the G-String recordings"

[joelpatterson]

You have got to love this forum... it's just like life itself: a total mixture of helpful friendly people, and then people who are like hecklers, ranting from the back of the room.

[David Spearritt]

... and an abundance of confused people and misinformation.

[jnorman]

btw, the above comment:

"Try putting the mics in omni mode so as not to lose bass response due to cardioid low frequency proximity effects."

is a misconception. only true pressure omnis have no proximity effect. multi-pattern mics that offer an "omni" setting do it by combining the outputs of the two capsules to acheive a quasi-omni effect - the mic will still display proximity effect.