Violin and Piano for Video

[joaquin]

Hello Fellow Remoter slutz!
I'll be recording a 6 year old Violin player with a piano accompanist to 3 cameras in a theatre this next saturday.
Basically, I'm using a Soundevices 442 as the central piece. I'm sending prefader independent signals to 2 cameras and a stereo mix to the third. Plus a stereo Mix to a PCM-50 portable recorder at 48KHz/24 bits. (This one mostly for me...)
Is my plan to use an ORTF stereo pair (414's Bxls) for the ensemble, a spot mic on the violin (U87) and a spot mic for the piano. (MXLS).
One of the problems is that the director (video) do not want to have visible mics!? So he suggested a wireless lav on the violin bridge...which would sound very unnatural and a shotgun from a short stand pointing up to her...

What would be some general pointers that with your experience you could give me?
About recording this kind of ensemble?
About mic selection?
About Video concerns with mic placement?
About rough mixing tips?
About stero information?

I just finished building snakes for the Cameras and stereo Pair (an extra camera snake-double duty) all with 1/8'' headphone monitoring lines...we'll see how we do with the length (90') each (2) and 25' (1). It's also a concern of mine ground loops..

Thanks for your help!

[pkautzsch]

Well, 414s and U87s aren't exactly small microphones, so I can fully understand the video guys' concerns.
First thing would be to use smaller microphones, and maybe fly them, so they don't see mic stands around. What you definitely need is a well-placed main pair.
You might not need a violin spot at all, or maybe a shotgun from a bit farther back. Piano spots are more easily hidden (you could indeed tape an SDC to the soundboard from below - dry-but-nice sound to be recorded there).
What's used most on that kind of video shoots is the Schoeps CCM or Colette series. They are really small, the accessories are aesthetically pleasing, and the whole thing is matte grey, so they are very unobtrusive even if they're right in the middle of the frame. Unfortunately, the stuff is a bit expensive so you should rent it (and have the client pay for that - it's them who demand unobtrusive mics and good sound).

What most video people don't understand ist that a shotgun mic doesn't exactly pick up less room sound than a cardioid, but that it (put very simply so the video guys might understand it) picks up a smaller area of direct sound.

[klaukholm]

This is a classic job for schoeps active stands.

[joaquin]

Hey. Thanks for your replies!
I'm basically using the 87 and 414s because they are my best mics for the job. I totally agree that they are big. Maybe they can be part of the video composition!?
pkautzsch, when you say fly them, I guess you are talking about hanging them from above? I have not been to the place yet, and maybe they already have some kind of installation...that would be nice.
The client won't spend money for rentals...Schoeps are surely great but out of reach at the moment.
I do have a SM81 and a MKH60 shotgun. I'll try to make the 414s work for the stereo pair, for they really sound great.
What about mic placement for this kind of ensemble? can I suggest placements for the players? I guess that like pkautzsch said, the stereo mics are critical, the "spots" I'll have to figure out. I'll try to use the directionality of the mics and watch out for phase problems. The 442 has great monitoring abilities and the producer should bring a couple of speakers.
Thanks again for your help.............Joaquin.

[Roland]

Klaukholm is spot on with this, remember with video sound sometimes has to take a back seat. If he won't pay for more hire, I would suggest that you mic slightly more "ambiently" and keep the mics out of shot that way, doing without the spots on instruments, there is no way you are going to make a U87 disappear on a video shoot, particularly when the subject is a six year old, it will be bigger than his head! If the recording is in a reasonably sized hall/venue the ambient sound might be much better than a spot miced option and a pair of your 414's might do a wonderful job. Remember the pecking order here (artist, video, sound) and you will be alright.

Regards


Roland

[joaquin]

Thank you Roland! I'll respect the priorities, though...when the subject is a musician, shouldn't be sound first!?
What are your experiences with placement of the stereo pair respect to this kind of ensemble? are there any guidelines to help the image or should I just simply follow my ears?
Thank you again for the Help.

[Roland]

Maybe sound should be the most important, however, it's the human story so unfortunately it will be the video. I would record the 414's as an MS pair bisecting through the violin ti the centre of the piano. If you end up with a little too much violin, it's not a disaster, the MS will allow you to controll the focus more, remeber it is possible that if this is a documentary they will possibly have voice over or interview running over the music or part of it, it's a common technique. Set up discreetly, keep out of the way during the shoot, be polite and helpful and everyone will come away with the opinion that you are a real pro. Good luck with it!

Regards



Roland

[joaquin]

Thank you Roland!
I'll report this afternoon.
Thanks again........Joaquin.

[diapasound]

Here's a great example of a classical 'music video' with visible microphones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXi5D366n7o

If you're creative with angles I think the microphones really add interest. You just have to make them part of the shot...make it seem intentional.

P.S. If video wins, miniatures like the DPA 4060 can be very useful. If those aren't available, figure-8 can give you a lot of reach.


Jeremy

[DSD_Mastering]

See if you can find/rent one of those Earthworks piano bars that fit inside the piano.


Regards,

[Gerax]

This is a situation where I think DPA lav mics can really help to get a great sound without getting in the way of video. I have used DPA 4061 mini mic serie for several recording and live sound reinforcement of classical strings. The sound you get from that mic mounted directly on the soundboard of the violin (with the included accesories) is incredibly natural for that short a distance. Same thing with the piano, where they could be esilly hidden. Provided that you can hang a main pair of your choice of mics for an ORTF I'd add those DPA as spots (they should be relatively cheap to rent, as they don't cost a leg as the rest of DPA mics, check them out).
Multitrack and then mix the spots with the sound you get from the main pair.
Player's position for this kind of duo is usually the violin in the curve of the piano 1 to 1,5 m ahead. I'd aim my main pair so that the violin is in the center of the stereo image and use the the spots for touch-ups of focus and definiton.
Try not to compromise your recording too much in favor of video: there's nothing worst than a great video shoot with poor/unfocused sound IMO...It's OK to collaborate with video crew but sound is 50% of a DVD and there's a point where I think you have to stand your ground and make clear that you need room to work too...

Hope this helps

L.G.

[joaquin]

Hello dear Remoters.
Thank you so much for the help and suggestions.
The Gig went well.
The Long snakes that I made, were very welcome. The space was great. A well design space for performance, with a nice wooden stage and mobile panels.
Mic placement was subordinated to Video, and had to move to the side of the stage loosing some of the balance in the room. The Violin player was a very talented 6 year old Girl with a small violin. She wasn't very Loud so I try to stay close up to the limits of frame. There were a couple of octavas hanging from the ceiling but to far for our ensemble and objectives and with theirs outs at the other side of the room making it really hard to use under the circumstances.
I ended up with the 414 as a stereo pair ORTF about 6 feet to the Soloist and about 12 to the Piano that was behind her. Piano had to be closed to help with the balance and was miked from under with a SM 81 that sounded surprisingly warm. I really use very little from it in the reference mix. I also placed in a very unorthodox way a shotgun MKH60 looking up to her about 3 feet from the subject and about 9 feet in line to my stereo pair! Phase with respect to the violin was good and actually made it sound bigger. Piano was a tad hammered.
Generally speaking, the gig went great. I learned a lot and the objective was achieved without any mayor technical problem. The overall sound is good and will probably be improved in post. My reference mix sound good. I miss not having just the Stereo mics to listen to, for I believe they sounded best by them self.
I will post a link if the video is eventually aired on the web.

Thanks again............Joaquin.

PS. the white tape on the floor in between the 414s is the soloist placement.

[joaquin]

just found the video
YouTube - Extraordinary 6-Year Old Child Violinist Brianna Kahane
Saludos..........