QTC50 , DPA 4011 OR SHOEPS MK4 on other sources then classical recordings ?

[SAGABEBA]

Any one can recommend mics like QTC50 , DPA 4011 OR SHOEPS MK4 on other sources then classical recordings ?

like Acoustic / Classic Gtr , Drums , percussion , world instruments etc ...

Thanks

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by SAGABEBA

Any one can recommend mics like QTC50 , DPA 4011 OR SHOEPS MK4 on other sources then classical recordings ?

like Acoustic / Classic Gtr , Drums , percussion , world instruments etc ...

Your menu has three quite different mics:
QTC series = good mid-grade omni
DPA 4011 = excellent high-end colorless cardi
Schoeps MK4 = classic high-end cardi with legendary color

What are you looking for?

[SAGABEBA]

I just hear all the time how good these mics on classical music which is great but I don't know how they sound with Acoustic / Classic Gtr , Drums , percussion , world instruments etc ...

I think to buy a pair and I'm learning the subject , I'm looking for an allround mics that will excel on a lot of sources ,

But maybe I need more then a pair ...

Somehow I tend toward the schoeps MK4 for a start

What do you say ?

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by SAGABEBA

I just hear all the time how good these mics on classical music which is great but I don't know how they sound with Acoustic / Classic Gtr , Drums , percussion , world instruments etc ...

I think to buy a pair and I'm learning the subject , I'm looking for an allround mics that will excel on a lot of sources ,

But maybe I need more then a pair ...

Somehow I tend toward the schoeps MK4 for a start

What do you say ?

Definitely get a matched pair. Natural acoustic music wants a natural stereo image.

The MK4 is a great choice because...

• Cardioids are useful in any room - recognize that without a good room you may frequently need to add artificial space with a reverb plugin or outboard processor,
• Schoeps mics are flattering to virtually every natural acoustic instrument including the human voice (I believe they're the most popular brand for opera),
• DPAs are truth-be-told honest, which means you can consider using them with a preamp that adds musical color to taste; Or you may prefer their totally transparent sound.

Omnis are NOT good mics for poor rooms. But if you have great sounding room you'll want omnis, and there are some good ones to choose from: Schoeps MK2, Josephson c617, DPA 4006, and Earthworks QTC series, among others. If you don't have a superior room or if you record in different rooms of varied quality, a cardioid pair will be more useful. Eventually you'll want at least one pair of cardis and one pair of omnis.

[BLP]

Originally Posted by SAGABEBA

I just hear all the time how good these mics on classical music which is great but I don't know how they sound with Acoustic / Classic Gtr , Drums , percussion , world instruments etc ...

I was in that position just a few years ago. I had this mental division of Schoeps and DPA being only for classical (or primarily, at least). Well, let me tell you, the day I realized that was not the case was quite and eye-opener! Now I don't know what I'd do without the MK4's in the studio.

Generally, I find the Schoeps to be a bit more versatile in the studio than the DPA's, as I am often looking for some color out of my mics, and the MK4's flatter just about every source I've ever tried them on. They're my go-to on acoustic guitar, piano (in tandem with other mics), percussion, cymbals/overheads, acoustic/upright bass, etc.

A producer I worked with put it best: "The Schoeps are kinda like really good 451's..."

[Svens]

I use Schoeps mics a lot in the studio. The MK21 is my favorite, but the MK4 is right behind it. I use both on acc guitars, percussion, overheads, room mics.....almost every acoustic source I can think of actually. They can handle plenty of SPL and sound great to my ears. Transparency is what comes to mind, but thats just my opinion. Please listen for yourself....

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by Svens

I use Schoeps mics a lot in the studio. The MK21 is my favorite, but the MK4 is right behind it. I use both on acc guitars, percussion, overheads, room mics.....almost every acoustic source I can think of actually. They can handle plenty of SPL and sound great to my ears. Transparency is what comes to mind, but thats just my opinion. Please listen for yourself....

I agree with your observation about the transparency of Schoeps. They're magic, IMO, because they are indeed fully revealing and yet have a hard to describe and unique musicality. Schoeps is at or near the top of a rare list of brands that no one disrespects and virtually everyone would like to own.

But let's give DPA its due. They are more transparent -- or perhaps it's more accurate to say, they are transparent without that magic Schoeps musicality. There are times when crystal clear digging for details is the bomb, and that's exactly what they deliver -- accurate transparency to a fault.

I left Sennheiser off my list but it wasn't intentional. The MKH 8000 series gets great reviews, (I haven't heard 'em yet) and they cost less than top-line models from Schoeps, DPA, and Josephson. In my opinion Earthworks omnis are not high-end, but they are very respectable. My QTC-40s get lots of use. Tomorrow night they'll be on a plexiglass plate, boundary-style ambient wingers, to capture professional adult and youth choirs. But my Josephson c617s are in another league entirely, like CMC6 MK2.

[mrhudson]

I'm in a similiar situation, looking to record a grand piano in my home, and am in the market for a similiar set of mics. I'm relatively new to recording, and am trying to "tell" whether I have a good or bad room (and whether I should use omnis or cardiods).

I know this is probably a pretty straightforward question, but what do you look for to tell if your room can handle omnis vs cardiod miking? If I can find a spot where I stand and can find the piano sound appealing, be it near the piano bench or 8 feet away, is that the only test of whether you have a 'good' room? Or, can a microphone 'hear' things in the room that might not be readily apparent by such a test? I think I can find a decent sounding spot, but don't want to order omnis for testing if they are going to flunk!

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by mrhudson

I'm in a similiar situation, looking to record a grand piano in my home, and am in the market for a similiar set of mics. I'm relatively new to recording, and am trying to "tell" whether I have a good or bad room (and whether I should use omnis or cardiods).

I know this is probably a pretty straightforward question, but what do you look for to tell if your room can handle omnis vs cardiod miking? If I can find a spot where I stand and can find the piano sound appealing, be it near the piano bench or 8 feet away, is that the only test of whether you have a 'good' room? Or, can a microphone 'hear' things in the room that might not be readily apparent by such a test? I think I can find a decent sounding spot, but don't want to order omnis for testing if they are going to flunk!

Low frequencies have no where to vent in tight spaces, so they'll mud up if you don't suck them up. Sofas against the wall are great suckers, but one probably isn't enough. Wood floors absorb up very low frequencies, slab floors don't.

If your room is not as large as a small acoustic studio or recital hall, then your only hope with omnis is to treat it first with bass traps and then tune the reflection routes for other frequencies with diffusers and absorbers. Then it probably won't be a living space, it'll be a recording space.

Cardis are needed in less than good spaces, and then you may need artificial space/reverb added after tracking.

I'd rent or borrow some mics for a weekend and try a few options to get your questions soundly onto a positive learning curve.

[SAGABEBA]

Good points , I think I'll start with the "CMC6 MK4" and continue from there ,

Thanks

[Peacock]

Originally Posted by SAGABEBA

Any one can recommend mics like QTC50 , DPA 4011 OR SHOEPS MK4 on other sources then classical recordings ?

like Acoustic / Classic Gtr , Drums , percussion , world instruments etc ...

Thanks

I use schoeps on almost all projects. I prefer the mk21 capsule for most of my uses. I also use DPA 4006 mics for many projects. Lately, I like the Gefell UMT70 for acoustic gtr in blumlein. All of these mics are just plain good mics often considered classical mics but are appropriate for all styles. . They are the "cream of the crop" mics.

For example, if you want some warming of a acoustic gtr put up the stereo mk21 schoeps. If you want it clear with silk highend DPA in decca. If you want extreme realism Gefell in blumlein etc. All this without having to change pres.

I am currently using a blumlein Gefell umt70 to record all parts of a singer song writer project with the goal of realism. Its working even on drums. A great mic pair.

[Corran]

No one has put in a word for Earthworks, per the norm usually...

I've used Earthworks mics on acoustic guitar and drums. They give an amazing sound. It's what I would consider "perfect" - and this is what they were designed to be. It will sound like the guitar/set is is right in front of you.

Earthworks mics are not "mid-grade" in my opinion. They are not the next-best thing before DPA/Schoeps. They are a completely different beast I think. As someone has stated, it depends on what you are going for. But if you want exactly what's in the room translated to your DAW - a pair of Earthworks and a clean preamp is all you need.

[Peacock]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

If your room is not as large as a small acoustic studio or recital hall, then your only hope with omnis is to treat it first with bass traps and then tune the reflection routes for other frequencies with diffusers and absorbers. Then it probably won't be a living space, it'll be a recording space.

Cardis are needed in less than good spaces, and then you may need artificial space/reverb added after tracking.

.

i actually feel the opposite is true. Omnis will give you a better sound in small places because of less bass build. Although, I have a moderate size well treated, multy angled tracking room (36 x 20) so maybe I am wrong. In my room which is all carolina pine- cardiods cause more problems with bass build.

[Peacock]

Originally Posted by Corran

No one has put in a word for Earthworks, per the norm usually...

I've used Earthworks mics on acoustic guitar and drums. They give an amazing sound. .

They are good sounding but have more noise and not as much focus as the DPA or schoeps. They do sound real but not in the same incredible way the Gefells do. I sold my earthworks because they are good but not in the obvious way the others are. Earthworks have realism but a harsher realism. They are still very very capable mics. IMO

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by Peacock

They are good sounding but have more noise and not as much focus as the DPA or schoeps. They do sound real but not in the same incredible way the Gefells do. I sold my earthworks because they are good but not in the obvious way the others are. Earthworks have realism but a harsher realism. They are still very very capable mics. IMO

I use my QTC40s all the time even though I have better mics at my disposal, for the very reasons you say.

EW QTCs are very good up close to sources and they're competent in some ambient situations too. I use mine often for winger/outrigger pickup --on either side of the mains-- and this also captures some of the room. To capture long tails in large halls we'll usually put up a Josephson c617/Gefell MK221 combo, which is, as you say, incredible.

btw, this thread gives EW some well-deserved love, you just have to read each post.

[u b k]

Originally Posted by mrhudson

I'm relatively new to recording, and am trying to "tell" whether I have a good or bad room (and whether I should use omnis or cardiods).

I know this is probably a pretty straightforward question, but what do you look for to tell if your room can handle omnis vs cardiod miking?

well, the odds are generally in favor of normal-sized, normal-function rectangular rooms sounding bad. it does occasionally happen that an erstwhile living room or bedroom sounds lovely, so i'm not ruling it out, but ime the great majority of non-purpose-built rooms have issues that need to be actively addressed via absorption and diffusion.

an easy way to tell the state of your room is this: put any decent sdc 3 feet in front of an acoustic guitar and record it. on playback, does the guitar sound sweet, focused, and intimate, with the player sitting just behind your monitors? or does the guitar sound boxy, distant, blurry, with the player sounding like he's in the next room over?

if the former, your room is good; if the latter, you need to treat the room.


gregoire
del
ubk
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[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by Peacock

i actually feel the opposite is true. Omnis will give you a better sound in small places because of less bass build. Although, I have a moderate size well treated, multy angled tracking room (36 x 20) so maybe I am wrong. In my room which is all carolina pine- cardiods cause more problems with bass build.

I think you've accurately described an undesirable sonic result of the proximity-effect that's characteristic of all pressure gradient, cardioid microphones. By comparison, omnis are indeed a more accurate tool for capturing low frequencies up close to an instrument. The bass is not overemphasized, so it sounds punchier and tighter, just simply more accurate.

If you want to hear the space, the ambient sound, the room itself has to be captured in larger proportion. Putting an omni close to an instrument captures the instrument well, but keeps most of the room out. Yet for undesirable spaces that's a great technique.

All-wood rooms eat low frequencies, especially if the floor is also made of wood. They kind of breathe with the energy and disperse it. But in such spaces some low-mid and mid-range frequencies are likely to resonate, not just in the air but also in the construction. By contrast, slab floors and walls of concrete and brick contain more of the energy in the air. Your particular construction may have undesirable resonances. Have you done any measurements?

Once a bass wave gets away from an instrument and out into a small room, it'll bounce around and lose all distinction by the destructive effect of multiple reflections. The muddy buildup that results can only end, eventually, through many cancellations in the air or by exiting through corner traps/energy suckers like sofas, walls, floors, and so on.

The key is to be aware that low frequency energy can't be accurately recorded in small rooms because the waves aren't discrete after folding back on themselves. A 100Hz wave is 11 feet or 3.4 meters. A 50Hz wave is 22.6 feet or 6.9 meters.

Rooms with serious trapping at one end will allow waves to travel relatively unmolested from one end to the other, then disappear. In such a room you can't record a large reflective hall sound, but you can record accurate bass. It's not unlike a car stereo with big sub woofers -- the entire car radiates waves that take a one way trip outside, allowing you to hear a punchy articulate sound even at a distance.

[steveschizoid]

Originally Posted by Corran

No one has put in a word for Earthworks, per the norm usually...

I've used Earthworks mics on acoustic guitar and drums. They give an amazing sound. It's what I would consider "perfect" - and this is what they were designed to be. It will sound like the guitar/set is is right in front of you.

Earthworks mics are not "mid-grade" in my opinion. They are not the next-best thing before DPA/Schoeps. They are a completely different beast I think. As someone has stated, it depends on what you are going for. But if you want exactly what's in the room translated to your DAW - a pair of Earthworks and a clean preamp is all you need.

+1
but, I haven't used the Shoeps. The conventional wisdom is that omni's are bad unless your room is great, and it's probably correct to the extent that you use your room. And certainly, the Earthworks can be a tad noisy on very quiet sources mic'd from a distance. Perhaps you can see where I am going with this.....shove the QTC's down the throat of whatever the source is! There's no proximity effect, and if you have a less than inspiring room and use cardioids, you'll have to add ambience anyway. I can't tell you how many drummers have commented about the wondrous drum sounds we achieved using these mic's as OH's in my tiny boxy sounding drum room. I have strategically treated the room to ameliorate the boxiness, but the whole idea is to avoid the sound of the room, and I suspect that is where many of us are.

[MichaelPatrick]

I think you guys are onto something about how to use EarthWorks QTC mics.

I don't know if enough people realize how good they are for close-up micing. Their sonic picture of truth about an instrument when used this way is uncanny. At their price point they should be more popular.

Originally Posted by steveschizoid

+1
but, I haven't used the Shoeps. The conventional wisdom is that omni's are bad unless your room is great, and it's probably correct to the extent that you use your room. And certainly, the Earthworks can be a tad noisy on very quiet sources mic'd from a distance. Perhaps you can see where I am going with this.....shove the QTC's down the throat of whatever the source is! There's no proximity effect, and if you have a less than inspiring room and use cardioids, you'll have to add ambience anyway. I can't tell you how many drummers have commented about the wondrous drum sounds we achieved using these mic's as OH's in my tiny boxy sounding drum room. I have strategically treated the room to ameliorate the boxiness, but the whole idea is to avoid the sound of the room, and I suspect that is where many of us are, and, of course, that's why God made the Bricasti M7. (now if He would just give me enough money to afford one...)

Originally Posted by Corran

No one has put in a word for Earthworks, per the norm usually...

I've used Earthworks mics on acoustic guitar and drums. They give an amazing sound. It's what I would consider "perfect" - and this is what they were designed to be. It will sound like the guitar/set is is right in front of you.

Earthworks mics are not "mid-grade" in my opinion. They are not the next-best thing before DPA/Schoeps. They are a completely different beast I think. As someone has stated, it depends on what you are going for. But if you want exactly what's in the room translated to your DAW - a pair of Earthworks and a clean preamp is all you need.

[tidepool]

Great thread, keep it coming.

[zakco]

Can't speak for the DPA or earthworks, but I have a pair of CMC6-mk4 that I use CONSTANTLY on a variety of sources. They are fantastic on just about any acoustic source. I even like them on vocals (just watch those plosives...).

The only app I've been unhappy with mk4 is on pop/rock drums. Just too honest and midrange focused. I prefer my josephson C42s for that...

[AB3]

I have a pair of DPA 4011 cardioids for recording my piano. If I had it to do over again, I would have gotten the 4006 omnis. The 4006 can have accessories that alter their characteristics. Here is a quote from a website about them:

"With the acoustic modification accessories it is possible to gain 7 different frequency responses and directional characteristics with just one 4006-TL. You simply change a grid or mount an element over the capsule and it will influence the sound field acoustically without any phase shift, noise or distortion, that any electrical filter will introduce."

Originally Posted by mrhudson

I'm in a similiar situation, looking to record a grand piano in my home, and am in the market for a similiar set of mics. I'm relatively new to recording, and am trying to "tell" whether I have a good or bad room (and whether I should use omnis or cardiods).

I know this is probably a pretty straightforward question, but what do you look for to tell if your room can handle omnis vs cardiod miking? If I can find a spot where I stand and can find the piano sound appealing, be it near the piano bench or 8 feet away, is that the only test of whether you have a 'good' room? Or, can a microphone 'hear' things in the room that might not be readily apparent by such a test? I think I can find a decent sounding spot, but don't want to order omnis for testing if they are going to flunk!

[Peacock]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

. Have you done any measurements?

.

No but we are planning too. We have recently used GIK to give us advice on our room with good results sonically in our room but measurments would be better I am sure.

I have no real knowledge on the subject other than listening. Our main engineer is planning to use measurements and to establish some basic levels for our place etc etc. We have been busy tracking 2 projects in addition to our day jobs but I really want to do these measurements. Our room is completely wood (old carolina pine floor walls and ceilings)

[kissingonstilts]

If you like any of the mics you mentioned in your original post, you might be wise to try some good KM84s.

I used some B&Ks (the old DPAs) on some of my early recordings in the late '80s, and they were effective when 'warmed' up, but a bit crispy (like 451s after graduate school). These were 'singer-songwriter' works - acoustic guitar, voice, percussion, acoustic piano, etc.

I then tried KM84s and Schoeps - both really wonderful, the 84s were perkier whereas the Schoeps were smoother (MK4 and MK21) - the 84s worked better on acoustic guitars and the Schoeps were lovelier on voice. The Schoeps sounded more 'European' and the 84s more 'American', if that makes any sense.

One time I set up an Earthworks (can't recall the model, it was right when they came out), an 84 and a Schoeps (MK4) side-by-side and listened closely. The Earthworks had the least personality, and the other two were each more dimensional in their own ways.

84s are a 'vintage' mic now and have gone up dramatically in price, but they're still cheaper than Schoeps. From my perspective, those mics (Schoeps and Neumann) aren't better or worse, just different.

With some experimentation, SDCs like 84s and Schoeps can do everything, and well.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by kissingonstilts

If you like any of the mics you mentioned in your original post, you might be wise to try some good KM84s.

I used some B&Ks (the old DPAs) on some of my early recordings in the late '80s, and they were effective when 'warmed' up, but a bit crispy (like 451s after graduate school). These were 'singer-songwriter' works - acoustic guitar, voice, percussion, acoustic piano, etc.

I then tried KM84s and Schoeps - both really wonderful, the 84s were perkier whereas the Schoeps were smoother (MK4 and MK21) - the 84s worked better on acoustic guitars and the Schoeps were lovelier on voice. The Schoeps sounded more 'European' and the 84s more 'American', if that makes any sense.

One time I set up an Earthworks (can't recall the model, it was right when they came out), an 84 and a Schoeps (MK4) side-by-side and listened closely. The Earthworks had the least personality, and the other two were each more dimensional in their own ways.

84s are a 'vintage' mic now and have gone up dramatically in price, but they're still cheaper than Schoeps. From my perspective, those mics (Schoeps and Neumann) aren't better or worse, just different.

With some experimentation, SDCs like 84s and Schoeps can do everything, and well.

You have a great story and it sounds to me like good taste and experience talking. I'd love to have a pair of 84s. But where to get 'em? And why doesn't Neumann get their act together and make a proper reissue? The KM-184 isn't the real deal.

[u b k]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

I'd love to have a pair of 84s. But where to get 'em?

they appear regularly on ebay, and they're the kind of mic i'd be unafraid to buy from a reputable ebayer.

have you tried the gefell m300? it's got the nickel capsule and a certain sweetness up top.


gregoire
del
ubk
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[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by u b k

they appear regularly on ebay, and they're the kind of mic i'd be unafraid to buy from a reputable ebayer.

have you tried the gefell m300? it's got the nickel capsule and a certain sweetness up top.

No I hadn't thought of the M300s. Thanks for bringing it up. I read up a bit and they could become my next cardis. I'm a huge fan of their MK221 capsule.

[Denny McNerney]

i have been using a matched pair of earthworks qtc-50's, and i think they are incredible...