Stereo Mic for organ

[matthewd]

Hi remote friends

I have an installation at St Johns College Cambridge from which we are webcasting on a regular basis. The main array is DPA 4011s and 4006s but it is a little far down the aisle to get clarity on the organ. The way the cables hang from the V.High ceiling, we can only accommodate a stereo mic as in one barrel which will hang about 2.5 metres in front of the organ. I thought maybe the AT822 or Rode NT4 might be suitable. Any low end deficiencies should be catered for by the DPA4006s and there are also KM183s in the antechapel which though miles away, sound really good. Its the detail we are missing in the solo organ numbers. The stuff with choir sounds pretty good. We've got preamps available at the head end. I am sure there are other mics I don't know about so suggest away - go on - you know you love it!!

If interested, you can in fact hear it here St John's College - Chapel & Choir - Chapel & Choir

Note it is only the latest two webcasts this term which have been done with the permanent rig - before then it was carry in.

Thanks

Matt

[tenor39]

If you want to stay with DPA, the 3521 kit will do the trick. It has (2) 4021's (essentially 4011's in 2 parts) and a stereo mount that will do ORTF or X/Y. I put an eye bolt in the end and fly it, using fishing line to position it.

[matthewd]

Hi Mike

I really appreciate that but in fact we can't incorporate this easily due to the fact there is an XLR barrel with electronics in it which means too many bulges. We have a pair of Servoreelers coming down 90 ft and there are stereo tails on each side of a trapeze on a mini stereo XLR. We need a stereo pair front facing for performances from the altar steps. The organ is off to the left in the same position and the bar has special allen key mic holder brackets which totally encase the mic in a very safe way. We don't want to add a cross bar to orientate towards the organ but instead with to make use of a central bracket between the stereo pair to hold a stereo mic single mic body dual capsule pointing off to the left. We could have done this better but for various reasons certain things were not thought through so it will have to be mounted on the supplied hardware. The bar is to go with the Servoreelers and has a very clever cleat for the cable to support the bar safely. I should get a photo of it to help you guys visualize it.

I've indirectly become more of an expert than I ever wanted to be on Servoreelers so if you guys are looking for a retractable solution where nothing else will work, this could be the answer.

Thanks again

Matt

[Corran]

I like the NT-4, but alongside a couple DPA's it might be obvious which mic is "low end". It's still a good mic for a lot of things though.

If you happen to decide on it I happen to have one for sale in the classifieds

[Recording David]

What about the Schoeps ORTF stereo mic: SCHOEPS ortf-stereo With your other nice mics it seems a shame to then go and use a Rode mic

BTW - good to see the Oxbridge choral crowd representing! I was a choral scholar at Oxford in the '90s.

[John Willett]

Hi Matt,

Various thoughts:-

Stereo mic:-
Neumann USM 69i
AKG C426 is a similar style
Both of these would hang straight down.

Sennheiser MS pair of MKH 30/40 would act like a single-point stereo mic. when clipped together; simple XLR Y-cable to get to 5-pin XLR.

Neumann, Schoeps and Sennheiser all do mini heads that can be very easily set up in ORTF - but only the MKH 8000 series don't have active cables; so you could cut two remote cables short and connect the cut ends into a 5-pin XLR for a very compact rig.

If you want stereo with a single XLR-3 then the best way would be to use the MKH 8000 heads, Y-cable into the new MZD 8000 digital module and run AES42.
I hope this helps - or at least is food for thought.

If you want to give me a ring, you have my number, but after today I'm off to the International Amateur Recording Contest in Germany and will only be on the mobile.

Cheers.

[0VU]

Originally Posted by John Willett

Sennheiser MS pair of MKH 30/40 would act like a single-point stereo mic. when clipped together; simple XLR Y-cable to get to 5-pin XLR.

As would any other pair of mics. If you want the Sennheiser over-under mounting method you could use any other side incidence 'pencil' type figure of eight, e.g. Schoeps, Neumann, AKG, and any other pencil mid mic.

Neumann, Schoeps and Sennheiser all do mini heads that can be very easily set up in ORTF - but only the MKH 8000 series don't have active cables;

tutt
That'll be 'only' the MKH 8000 and the Schoeps CCM and the DPA compact ranges, and other odds and ends from other manufacturers like Rode, AT, and probably others.

so you could cut two remote cables short and connect the cut ends into a 5-pin XLR for a very compact rig.

Like the Schoeps/DPA mics then.

If you want stereo with a single XLR-3 then the best way would be to use the MKH 8000 heads, Y-cable into the new MZD 8000 digital module and run AES42.

What difference does it make whether you use a 3 pin or 5 pin XLR - they're the same physical size. I'd suggest that saving two pins in the XLR at the expense of requiring digital interfacing 'modules' is a false economy in simplicity.

For that matter, if you need a single cable solution with y-cables to separate mic heads, Schoeps do a dual channel analogue preamp/body (admittedly on a 5 pin XLR) which can take a y-leaded pair of active cables, which makes available the full range of Schoeps capsules.


A couple of manufacturers of high quality, relatively compact single body stereo mics that'd be worth considering are Pearl, Sanken, each of which makes a selection of similar, usually MS stereo mics. Or there are used stereo mics around from the likes of Schoeps and even Sony. Or for more money and a certain amount of messing about and added complexity in the decoding, how about one of the Soundfield derivatives? Or for something more 'off the wall' how about the tiny Core Sound 'Soundfield' type mic. It uses a lightweight multicore cable and would need some kind of breakout and processing (which might make it impractical in this application) but it's very small and very competitively priced. The results I've heard form one are surprisingly good - certainly not about to lose out when compared to Rode, and at least one organist friend swears by his for ease of use and sound quality on archive recordings.

[Ozpeter]

LSD2 - Large-Diaphragm Stereo Microphone hangs nicely but it's a bit heavy.

I've very frequently suspended a MKH MS stereo pair from a single stereo mic cable (starquad) eg from the roof of the Wigmore Hall down above the stage (not therefore using the BBC slings) or from the lighting gantry of the Queen Elizabeth Hall for orchestral recordings, or from high above the Hamer Hall in Melbourne (that mic pair has travelled a long way!) - you just have to be able to adjust for a little twisting as the cable settles down. I imagine you'd only need to do that once in a permanent installation. I use a little six inch threaded tube to attach the standard Sennheiser MS pair mic clips to, and fix that to the cable with a couple of cable ties (thus providing strain relief to the Y cable connector).

Heh, St John's.... I haven't recorded that organ since I did David Hill's first recording session there when he was I think still in his teens! I still have the recording, recently restored from reel to reel to CD.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by 0VU

tutt
That'll be 'only' the MKH 8000 and the Schoeps CCM and the DPA compact ranges, and other odds and ends from other manufacturers ....

Oops, honest mistake - sorry - I was thinking of the other series and forgot - sorry - trying to do much at once with all the preparations for the International Recording Contest this weekend.

Originally Posted by 0VU

What difference does it make whether you use a 3 pin or 5 pin XLR

A *lot* of difference.

A 5-pin is balanced stereo a 3-pin would have to be run unbalanced with the high possibility of lots of RF interference. The suggestion was only if you have to hang a stereo mic. and only have a single balanced cable available.

Hence the suggestion of AES42 stereo down a single balanced mic. cable.

[matthewd]

Thanks chaps - it is difficult to explain the nature of the bar we are married to with the servoreelers if we are to avoid extra modification and so the Schoeps MSTC64U looks like the best option - the mic body is 5 pin stereo XLR which fits nicely leaving us with only one Y cable for the front facing stereo pair. Dave in particular will be interested to learn we are doing the same thing for New College Oxford which is where we will be using some Sennheiser 8000 series so everyone will get a bite of the cake so to speak.

Matt

[sonare]

Don't know how complete a stereo picture you are hoping to get from the organ spots, but if you haven't considered a pair of DPA 4061 they are worthy compared to any of the mics you are using. Compared to my 4003s they definitely sound similar-- and with the small grills removed they are ruler-flat. The latest version is fully balanced so you can use the miniature cables as far up as you need. or you could easily rig a small bar with carbon fiber rod if a hanging A-B is not practical. Since the choir is the traditional dec-can layout, pin-point imaging with the organ spots won't be essential, and the little DPAs match their bigger brothers perfectly.

The Mander there is a terrific instrument and definitely deserves some detail. And my UK friends say "the King's choir IS terrific, but those in the know pay closest attention to St John's." If you have a pulse, then recording this choir should be a thrill.

BTW-- couldn't help but notice the Naxos CDs that Tony engineered are mentioned on the choir website. They present a clear demonstration (even after dithering) of the superiority of original 24-bit, as the earlier one is 16-bit.

Rich

[Recording David]

Originally Posted by matthewd

Dave in particular will be interested to learn we are doing the same thing for New College Oxford which is where we will be using some Sennheiser 8000 series so everyone will get a bite of the cake so to speak.

Matt

Rich is right - St John's & New College choirs are f'ing amazing. That sounds like a great gig.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by sonare

Don't know how complete a stereo picture you are hoping to get from the organ spots, but if you haven't considered a pair of DPA 4061 they are worthy compared to any of the mics you are using.

Forgot to mention that they are are about 1/2 inch long and maybe 1/4 inch diameter. This means they are truly omni at any frequency, and the higher noise from the smaller capsule isn't noticed in their role as spots.

Rich

[sonare]

I am just now listening and this all sounds fantasric! The spoken word seems a little hot when monitoring at a K-17 level-- which sounds perfect for the music. Is this 192kbs?

To be honest, this is the best streaming I have heard apart from this:

Savannah Music Festival: Radio

The Festival is a major client of mine. They use InstantEncore - Live Classical Music for streaming service.

Anyway, kudos on a great sound!

Rich

[matthewd]

Thanks Rich for your kind comments. We don't have much control over the spoken word level - we just get a feed from the PA which is controlled in the chapel by a verger. We have mixed it a bit loud to guarantee intelligibility but this is useful feedback - I would like to mix it a bit quieter.

The really cool thing is watching the servoreelers retract at the end of the service into the roof space 90ft above!!!

Matt