log cabin experiment

[lionheart220]

I would like to admit up front that I am a complete noob, as I'm sure will be evident from my post.

Those of you that graciously continued reading in spite of the aforementioned disclaimer, thank you...

I have the opportunity to record at a cabin for a couple of weekends this fall/ winter. I currently have a MacBook Pro, Logic and a Duet. I plan on recording vocals and a 1974 D-28 only.

With the goal of recording only and a budget of ~$1000, what mic(s) would you suggest?

Thank you very much in advance.

please, help a girl out!

[PlugHead]

I've done quite a few sessions/demos in log cabins. Actually, they are one of my favourite work environments (shows my true colours!) but - I hope you are away from noise (traffic/industry) as they're often not well insulated/isolated from outside noise, and nothing can ruin a take faster than a truck rolling by, or a dog barking next door...

Are you planning on tracking guitar and voice together or separate? This will totally determine how you record, and what mics you choose...

If you have no mics yet, I'd suggest looking for a pr. of AKG 460's (used - about $600+-) or on the cheap, a pr. of Oktava MK012's (you'll have to source out GOOD ones - there are chinese knockoffs and QC is horrible) or even cheaper MXL 603's - all of these should be able to capture acoustic guitar quite well. I'm not going to say they are as good as $2000 mics, but - even with the 603's, you 'should' be able to get a decent guitar sound.

As for a vocal mic: this is REALLY subjective. There is no way to actively describe what YOU want to hear - you need to audition a BUNCH of mics. I'd suggest trying a few options: a good dynamic mic, like the Shure SM7, Sennheiser 441, or an EV-RE20. Then, I would try out a few large diaphragm condensers - for a grand, there are no really high quality options but I'd suggest trying a Marshall V67G, or their new V67i, and there is a host of other cheap mics out there - I'd recommend doing a search.

Otherwise, if you're limited to 2 channels in, AND you're doing guitar/voice together, that changes things. This requires a bit more understanding of mic choice, AND placement to get the best results. Again, I'd suggest doing a search here, and on other bb's to find some results to help you decide which way to record yourself.

Suffice to say, it is not an easy job for a 'newbie' to get stellar results, but trial and error are the ways to making progress. Enjoy the ride.

best,

[lionheart220]

Thank you very much for your reply!

The cabin I am working at has been acoustically treated to some degree. Also, I plan on scouting sweet spots as per another thread I found on here....

It's on about 15 acres, dogs and traffic noise hopefully will not be an issue.

I am open to recording vocals/ guitar together or separately, whichever would give the best recording quality. I was looking at an sm7 and a pair of sm81s...? What about one ldc for vocals and guitar?

I definitely plan on completing everything beyond direct recording at a dedicated studio, but want a recording worthy of taking to one.

Thank you again for your help, it means alot!

[PlugHead]

SM81's are OK for guitar - I think the MXL 603's are cheaper, and could be as good or better. The SM7 is a fair choice, but as with anything, how it works for YOUR voice is totally subjective - auditioning a bunch of mics on your voice is the first step to knowing what you prefer...

Are you tracking the guitar first, or doing both at once? This will def. determine WHAT I would use, and what techniques I'd use to record. If yes to both at once, the SM7 is a pretty good option as it will not pick up a lot of the guitar in your vocal mic, but your voice will be all over the guitar mic (with only 2 inputs, you could only do one mic on the guitar and one on voice) - most def. troublesome for 'phase' problems (the short time delay of your voice reaching the guitar mic(s) in relation to the vocal mic capsule). One way to remedy this is recording in M/S and processing afterwards - do a search for stereo M/S recordings here, or go here for a good description (scroll down to Microphone University: M/S recording techniques):

DPA Microphones

Otherwise, if you are open to tracking each separately, it will be easier, tho - you have to keep in mind, if you are going to have other parts put on afterwards in a studio, it would be best to lay the guitar to a click track (metronome) so that tracking other instruments can be done in a timely and efficient manner. Just make sure your headphones are tight, and you keep the click low enough to not 'bleed' into the guitar mics. Again, trial and error till you get the results you want will eventually become apparent...

Hope this helps, and good luck!

[swafford]

I'd look at using at least one mic that will do Fir 8 so you can record both at the same time and get plenty of rejection of at least one source. If your not use to recording yourself, you'll find you spend more time on engineering then tracking, and that will suck. Or even one decent mic and record both at once, or if you insist, one after the other. Plenty of mics can handle the duties of both depending on your singing and playing style - a Gefell UM70 or Royer 121 might be perfect for such a task.

Good luck!

[lionheart220]

That you so much again for your help!

I believe it may be best to track guitar and then vocals, especially considering I will be alone.

What are your thoughts on using the above mentioned combo, sm7 & sm81 X 2 or equivalent vs a single "desert island" ldc mic for both guitar and vocals?

I believe a ldc may be the general sound I'm looking for vs a sdc in recording a dreadnought...

Would it make sense (if I were to increase my budget) to run a higher end ($2-3k) mic into the modest gear I have now?

Thanks again guys!

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by lionheart220

What are your thoughts on using the above mentioned combo, sm7 & sm81 X 2 or equivalent vs a single "desert island" ldc mic for both guitar and vocals?

I believe a ldc may be the general sound I'm looking for vs a sdc in recording a dreadnought...

Would it make sense (if I were to increase my budget) to run a higher end ($2-3k) mic into the modest gear I have now?

Thanks again guys!

Well,

If there is anything I've learned in the past 20 years recording is: GREAT microphones are the answer to 90% of sonic malaise. My opinion is: buy once and be happy. Although I think having one GREAT mic trumps having a bunch of lesser ones, there is no silver bullet - one mic might work wonders on your voice, but sound horrid on the guitar, or vice versa...

Opinions are like bellybuttons - everyone has one. In my experience, I most often prefer SDC's to LDC's on acoustic guitar: they are more 'realistic' and the detail they can capture are better suited to guitar than many LDC's, until you get into the 'dream' budget (i.e. WAY above 3 grand/mic). Not to say a great LDC cannot do a good job, just my opinion through years of experience. That said, a great LD mic is often best suited for voice - that might be a dynamic/tube/FET/ribbon mic - depends on the artist and the aesthetic.

Having said (written) all that - I still encourage you to book an hour, maybe 2 in a studio (with a huge assortment of great mics) and run some tests to determine what you like. It will be money well spent to help you along the path you choose...

Lastly, I wouldn't skimp on a good LDC - you could easily spend a grand, more like 2 grand in getting a mic worthy of capturing your voice. The problem is as stated earlier - opinions vs. YOUR reality of what YOU like. No one can tell you what your preference is. Again, heading to a well equipped studio for about an hr. could really help you save money in the long run. Who knows - maybe they'll even help you out for possible re-tracking/mixing when you get your keeper takes from the cabin?!?

Again, I hope this helps - good luck!

[CompEq]

Don't buy. Rent.

Of course your tag doesn't show where you're from so me being in L.A. saying this could be the most inappropriate statement ever. Ever try asking an Eskimo if they have fresh mangos? Anyway, if there is, then see what they have in their inventory. Why blow a grand if you're inexperienced?

Spend the money on some good workhorse type mics. For example, the ATM450 on acoustic guitar. For vox, you'll have to experiment. There are plenty of posts around here suggesting mic type and position, etc.

[lionheart220]

Thank you for being so helpful...

I never considered the possibility of renting, that may be the most viable option.

I am living in Columbus, Ohio, which I imagine has a resource for that. However, I am not sure where to go or what specifically I should ask for. I do not want to come across as rude or offensive to a studio I may potentially want to complete my material with in the future. i.e. I don't want to walk into a steakhouse with my own steak and ask them to cook it.

Also, will the benefits of a $3k mic into a Duet be apparent, or is that senseless overkill in my given signal chain?

Thank you all again so much for your input, you are really helping me out.

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by lionheart220

Thank you for being so helpful...

I never considered the possibility of renting, that may be the most viable option.

I am living in Columbus, Ohio, which I imagine has a resource for that. However, I am not sure where to go or what specifically I should ask for. I do not want to come across as rude or offensive to a studio I may potentially want to complete my material with in the future. i.e. I don't want to walk into a steakhouse with my own steak and ask them to cook it.

Also, will the benefits of a $3k mic into a Duet be apparent, or is that senseless overkill in my given signal chain?

Thank you all again so much for your input, you are really helping me out.

I didn't suggest renting as you seemed to have a 'long-term' situation for recording - if it were for a weekend, or week or so, renting would def. be a good option - even for personal evaluation to determine what sound you like on your voice/guitar.

You are very close to VintageKing in Detroit - I'd call Mike (or associates) and choose a couple of mics to rent for evaluation - keeping in mind, you should know their relative value to judge whether or not you can afford to purchase them if interested (they do not rent cheap mics!)

IME, I learned the hard way - purchasing 'cheap' gear was a step backwards - after that, I went hi-end for mics/pre's/etc. and NEVER looked back...

good luck!

[jonsays]

Originally Posted by lionheart220

I would like to admit up front that I am a complete noob, as I'm sure will be evident from my post.

Those of you that graciously continued reading in spite of the aforementioned disclaimer, thank you...

I have the opportunity to record at a cabin for a couple of weekends this fall/ winter. I currently have a MacBook Pro, Logic and a Duet. I plan on recording vocals and a 1974 D-28 only.

With the goal of recording only and a budget of ~$1000, what mic(s) would you suggest?

Thank you very much in advance.

please, help a girl out!

I'm sympathetic, as I too have a Mac and a Duet. And I've made some trips to my family's northern Michigan cabin. A relaxing setting for recording. Be warned -- getting too comfortable might inhibit getting things done. That is, if you're anything like me. Fireplaces are hypnotic...

It's fair to say, that the Duet is pretty amazing, and does wonders even with something like a sm57, a good all-around workhorse mic you can pick up (or might already have) for under $100. It sounds like you're just starting out with this, so stick with the basics.

Also consider your approach: are you going to track guitar and then vox, or both simultaneously? If it is the former, you could get away with using the same mic. If it's the latter, you might want to look into a second mic, although you could use two mics to track the guitar alone as well. The Duet has two inputs, so there is some room for choice.

I agree with the others in terms of renting, if and only if you don't plan on getting back into the recording phase for a while. You're better off marking off which days you're recording, renting really great mics for that duration, and you'll end up spending much less. If you don't think they'll end up collecting dust in a closet, then buy buy buy.

My opinion: If you're feeling good about your music, enjoying the warmth of a cabin, and using the lovely Duet, it will sound good through something as basic as a sm57. And you'll be happy you saved some bank for a rainy day. I can testify from my own experience that I am more than happy with the sessions I did at my cabin with a Duet, a Mac, and ONE sm57.

-jon

[jonsays]

Originally Posted by PlugHead

I didn't suggest renting as you seemed to have a 'long-term' situation for recording - if it were for a weekend, or week or so, renting would def. be a good option - even for personal evaluation to determine what sound you like on your voice/guitar.

You are very close to VintageKing in Detroit - I'd call Mike (or associates) and choose a couple of mics to rent for evaluation - keeping in mind, you should know their relative value to judge whether or not you can afford to purchase them if interested (they do not rent cheap mics!)

IME, I learned the hard way - purchasing 'cheap' gear was a step backwards - after that, I went hi-end for mics/pre's/etc. and NEVER looked back...

good luck!

Where in Detroit is VintageKing? I couldn't find a location at their site. I'm there often enough I should stop in next time.

[lionheart220]

Originally Posted by jonsays

Where in Detroit is VintageKing? I couldn't find a location at their site. I'm there often enough I should stop in next time.

1603 E 9 Mile Rd
Ferndale, MI 48220
(248) 591-9221

This site certainly looks fantastic. Is it faux pas to inquire about renting mics at the various studios in Columbus? Does anyone have a source in Columbus that rents? Detroit isn't terribly far from Columbus, but renting entails two round trips, and the cabin is about 2 hours southeast of Columbus. Nonetheless, this is a fantastic option which I will research further.

I do expect to get some very good use out of a mic if I decide to purchase, and I definitely plan on making a purchase in the near future. As you mentioned, I want to buy something a little higher end the first time and avoid being unhappy.

If you were given the MacBook Pro/ Logic/ Duet setup and a budget of ~$1000, what one LDC would you bring to the cabin to separately record vocals and guitar?

If I decide to rent or purchase, I believe this is what I may be looking at. Or I could rent something higher end now, wait, and buy something higher end later. At this point, I can't answer just how much later it will be, which is troubling.

Thank you all so much for your consideration, your help has been invaluable-

[Milliken]

If you were given the MacBook Pro/ Logic/ Duet setup and a budget of ~$1000, what one LDC would you bring to the cabin to separately record vocals and guitar?

Mojave MA-200. - 1000 bucks new.

Beautiful, detailed, warm, intimate, fast transients for a LDC.

It has a great reputation for Acoustic and Vocals.

Yes, your Duet, and ears, will thank you for feeding it signal from a great mic. It's the most important thing in the chain after the performance.

[jonsays]

Originally Posted by lionheart220

1603 E 9 Mile Rd
Ferndale, MI 48220
(248) 591-9221

This site certainly looks fantastic. Is it faux pas to inquire about renting mics at the various studios in Columbus? Does anyone have a source in Columbus that rents? Detroit isn't terribly far from Columbus, but renting entails two round trips, and the cabin is about 2 hours southeast of Columbus. Nonetheless, this is a fantastic option which I will research further.

I do expect to get some very good use out of a mic if I decide to purchase, and I definitely plan on making a purchase in the near future. As you mentioned, I want to buy something a little higher end the first time and avoid being unhappy.

If you were given the MacBook Pro/ Logic/ Duet setup and a budget of ~$1000, what one LDC would you bring to the cabin to separately record vocals and guitar?

If I decide to rent or purchase, I believe this is what I may be looking at. Or I could rent something higher end now, wait, and buy something higher end later. At this point, I can't answer just how much later it will be, which is troubling.

Thank you all so much for your consideration, your help has been invaluable-

My friend Eric Nassau is a folky-troubadour in Columbus. You might want to look him up on the web and pick his brain for local mic resources. He has recorded a few really killer folk albums and he runs with a good community of musicians. He'd probably be able to point you in the right direction, proximity wise.

[lionheart220]

Originally Posted by jonsays

My friend Eric Nassau is a folky-troubadour in Columbus. You might want to look him up on the web and pick his brain for local mic resources. He has recorded a few really killer folk albums and he runs with a good community of musicians. He'd probably be able to point you in the right direction, proximity wise.

Great! I've seen Eric a few times, very talented musician. Thanks!

[CompEq]

Originally Posted by lionheart220

Thank you for being so helpful...

I never considered the possibility of renting, that may be the most viable option.

I've bought and rented and for your gig (short-term) a rental seemed like the way to go. Thanks.

I am living in Columbus, Ohio, which I imagine has a resource for that. However, I am not sure where to go or what specifically I should ask for. I do not want to come across as rude or offensive to a studio I may potentially want to complete my material with in the future. i.e. I don't want to walk into a steakhouse with my own steak and ask them to cook it.

You wouldn't contact a studio directly, though some may have a rental department in which case, perfect! What you want is a company a studio would go to if they need specific equipment for a session on a rental basis.

Google "audio equipment rental, Columbus, OH". There are several places that seem to rent for events and things. They may have what you want, but a dedicated studio equipment rental facility may not be in your neighborhood. Call around, maybe they can email you an equipment list of microphones or direct you to a page on their site.

Also, will the benefits of a $3k mic into a Duet be apparent, or is that senseless overkill in my given signal chain?

I can't difinitively say yes or no to this.* Some vocalists sound better on a $15k mic and some on a $350 mic. Is it a male or female voice? If you have recorded them before did you notice any issues you may have to deal with, excessive sibilance or certain frequencies that need taming, etc.? Mic selection is based on a ton of variables. There's also the sound of the room (or how you choose to treat it acoustically - if necessary) and its reflections. And the separation between the vocal and the guitar.

Thank you all again so much for your input, you are really helping me out.

My pleasure.


* I have a $750 mic that in my opinion killed a $3500 mic on a certain vocalist on a certain day in a certain room. Get the point? It all depends. It's hard enough to choose a mic when you've got 6 mics set up for a vocalist to audition and then to do so without the vocalist or the room? Maybe rent a couple of mics, but there's no need to go crazy. You're investing in your ability to tell the difference as much as your need to get the recording done in the amount of time that you have. If you spend all day picking a mic, then the day is lost. You don't have time for that so it's good you're thinking this through now. Make sure you have all the materials you'll need as well. Log cabins don't usually come equipped with mic or music stands. Also, bring extra cables. Never can tell if one is bad 'till you use it. Any reasonable rental outfit will gladly help you choose a mic for your application. They want your return business. Tell them what you're doing and ask for suggestions. Granted, the dropout behind the counter may not be the best choice for advice but use your judgement to find somene knowledgable and helpful.

PS. Here's an option. Contact a studio and ask if they do equipment rental, specifically microphones. If not ask if they could refer you to a local rental company that they have used.

[jonsays]

Originally Posted by lionheart220

Great! I've seen Eric a few times, very talented musician. Thanks!

Cool, tell him Jon Rajewski (the 'w' is silent) recommended you pick his brain. He knows a lot of good resources in the midwest.