Mic Pre's in live audio

[dvenus]

With all prices set aside what are the best Mic preamps for live application?

Ive heard good things about Midas, Avalon, ATI, and API. What are your preferences and why?

Any suggestions guys? Thanks

[dvenus]

anyone?

[henryrobinett]

I've got a bank plus of Millennias -- But this is live recording audio . . .

[seaneldon]

Most live/location engineers like to get as many mic pres as possible in a small space. API 200-series gets you 12 gain'n'go pres in 2 rack spaces. The ATI 8MX2 is another favorite in this application...I know that Steve Remote's got a bunch of 8MX2's but he's got a bunch of everything.

Crane Song "Spider" is a WONDERFUL 8 channel pre/AD converter/mixer which could be what the doctor ordered if we're talking about recording a live performance digitally.

[Mike Brown]

While some people may have a "superstar" channel with an outboard pre, and some outboard equipment the usual answer is "Whatever the console has".

Most live guys don't really care as long as it works day in and day out rain or shine and sounds pretty good. There are quite a few people who will travel with 200 series racks and such.

Its more about the features the console has, digital or analog, and then whatever pres come along with that package.

Midas is obviously popular because it comes with being one of the most popular analog live sound consoles out there.

In other words, its more about getting sound out and not so much being nit-picky about individual components. Its all about speed and work flow.

I think Pres will come out on tour more now that we have digital consoles.

[travisbrown]

Maybe an outboard for the feature vocal, but I rarely see anyone use anything other than what's in the console. On occasion, if I'm doing a small acoustic show or something with a really strong lead vocal, I'll use something like a Avalon 737 or Drawmer 1960 if handy.

Live audio isn't an application where you get a whole lot of benefit from a whole rack of boutique preamps for FOH sound. It's usually an imprecise environment with smeared transients, imbalanced frequencies and big thumpy speakers. A good board does just as well.

But as Henry wrote, if you are talking about live recording, that's a different issue. There are any number of pres that work well. For mobile rigs, usually it's the 6 or 8 channel rackmount units. Pick your flavour. You can always reamp key channels with the really expensive stuff back at the studio.

[fifthcircle]

Here is my rack of pres from a festival gig I did this summer... Of course it was classical, but I try to bring good stuff our as often as possible. It makes a huge difference.

In case you can't see them all, there are:

6 channels of Millennia, 4 channels of Vac Rac, 2 Boulder Twin Servo, 8 Grace (801), 8 Focusrite (ISA 828), A Designs Pacifica, API A2D, and DAV BG2.

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Here is my rack of pres from a festival gig I did this summer... Of course it was classical, but I try to bring good stuff our as often as possible. It makes a huge difference.

In case you can't see them all, there are:

6 channels of Millennia, 4 channels of Vac Rac, 2 Boulder Twin Servo, 8 Grace (801), 8 Focusrite (ISA 828), A Designs Pacifica, API A2D, and DAV BG2.

Yes, I should clarify that I was talking about live sound for rock/pop bands. I'd be more prone to using external pres for small ensembles, just 'cause. Millennias would be nice for classical instrumentation.

[jasonraboin]

I have a BAE lunchbox filled with 2 A Designs EM-Red, 2 EM-Gold, and 2 EM-Blue. This rack sits on the stage and I plug the banjo, mandolin, mandola, fiddle, and two acoustic guitars into the instrument inputs. Takes the place of DI boxes and sounds fantastic. I also have a REDDI for the bass that I run directly into a compressor, then into the console at line level. On top of that I have 4 channels of Pacifica at foh that I use on accordion, instrument mics, and of course lead vocal.

I have found that I am eq'ing a lot less, and by using the pad and more gain on some inputs, using less compression. For me, mixing at low volumes, with great PAs, in fantastic venues, I can hear the difference. More importantly, the musicians hear the difference and they have told me how much more fun it is to play when their instruments sound good.

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by travisbrown

Yes, I should clarify that I was talking about live sound for rock/pop bands. I'd be more prone to using external pres for small ensembles, just 'cause. Millennias would be nice for classical instrumentation.

Even when I do my rock/pop gigs, I'll bring/rent similar gear. It makes a massive difference in the sound and if the budget can support it, it is a great thing to have. When I mix on lower-end digital boards, I tend to bring more than if I'm working on a good analog console. The down side of the digital consoles is that often you cannot insert analog comps and such in a traditional fashion. You either do it after an A-D/D-A conversion or you do it inline. I find that I'm usually running inline so I get the benefit of that processing before I hit converters. Either way it is a bit of a pain, but worth it in the end when it comes to the sonics.

I also find that placing preamps back stage also helps with sginal to noise issues- bump up to line level at the stage and send back to FOH that way. You can avoid many of the hums and buzzes that enter through long cable runs that way.

--Ben

[jensenmann]

Forget about mikepres but get some more damping into the room (if show is inside) or get a better PA. Let the musicians use inear instead of loud wedges which destroy your FoH sound. Delay the whole PA as much as that the PA is acoustically in line with the backline. All that will help you more than any outboard preamp on this planet.

[Brad Lunde]

We do a lot with True Systems Precision 8 for live. We have major truck type audio customers (Chicago Recording) and most of the major sound companies using this box. I think for live sound, where rack space is king, its between the True and ATI, both good.
Brad

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by jensenmann

Forget about mikepres but get some more damping into the room (if show is inside) or get a better PA. Let the musicians use inear instead of loud wedges which destroy your FoH sound. Delay the whole PA as much as that the PA is acoustically in line with the backline. All that will help you more than any outboard preamp on this planet.

I would hope that this would go without saying... If you're at the point where you are worying about your outboard and preamps, you should have a system that allows you to hear the difference.

With Digital consoles, it is getting easier and easier to tweak systems- make sure EQ and delay are exactly what they should be. Before, you had to bring a lot more with your drive rack to make sure that would happen. The big systems usually would have this, but too many times, the smaller gigs this part would suffer. Today, you can have a smaller and cheaper digital console (ie LS9 or M7CL) and you can really tweak the system.

I realize that my preamp rack is a bit extreme for many gigs, but there is a lot you can do that will give you the sonic advantages of pres without having to bring lots of gear. When using Yamaha, the AD8HR preamps have headamp control that their boards work with easily. They also sound quite good- more on the transparent end of things, but they sound pretty good. I use them all the time on Ethersound networks. Numerous larger FOH consoles have stage boxes that contain the pres. This gives you that advantage of the short mic cable runs and you end up with much better sound. The Digico SD7 has a good sounding preamp with gaintracking across multiple boards in a system... The live world is changing- and as far as I'm concerned, definitely for the better.

--Ben

[jensenmann]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

I would hope that this would go without saying... If you're at the point where you are worying about your outboard and preamps, you should have a system that allows you to hear the difference.

Well, if so then I´d suggest to use a different preamp (if preamp is what you think is important) for vocals than for all other signals to get a different flavor for vocals and make it an entity of it´s own in the mix - if the preamp has enough personality to do this. A friend uses a Midas XL42 for this. What I do to give vocals an outstanding character in the mix is using my 1176. This box gives every signal passing through an own distinct shine. I strongly believe that this adds more to the character than a different preamp. And vocals need to be compressed, anyway.

btw, Ben, have you ever had a chance to check Rocknet? We just installed a system at work which connects a concert hall (FoH + Mon) with a studio and an OB truck docking station. They use excellent preamps and support Yamaha desks with a card of their own (for other desk there will be Madi coming soon). Check here: Welcome to Media Numerics' Website
Absolutely easy to use and highly redundant network design.

[Dangerous C]

Touring festival circuit in Oz, most of the outboard pre's guys bring are Avalon 737's. Often I think it's a bizarre choice, but quite a few rock bands use these for C vox. I just can't help but think the 40+ ch of H 3k and huge rack of 160's is much more rock than that pre to my ears. Why not an Aurora or a frigging 512C? I think the 500 series in the most overlooked tool for intergrating outboard to live sound reinforcement, it does my head in.

C

[sdelsolray]

A Pendulum Audio SPS-1 is a good choice. Two excellent pres, three bands of parmetric eq per channel, and several live application features.

[squeegybug]

Using high end mic preamps in any setting, live or studio, always makes a positive difference. I use Gordons for both, and sometimes Klark Teknik DN422M (which is the same as Midas XL42). Have also used the SPS-1 for both when I had it, but preferred the others. The Gordons are capable of being used remote which can be very handy.

What I find when doing these (mostly acoustic instruments) shows is that the singers and players can work much easier. Response is instantaneous, less EQ is required, overall a much stronger sound into the mix bus. And the tone of mic bleed can be a huge issue in these setups, where acoustic/electric instrument sound from monitors or just their live sound can run back into the vocal mics and vice-versa. The overall tone of the mix will change a lot depending on what mic preamps are used. With high quality pres, this bleed is clean and does not affect the amplified tone of instruments and vocals as much as when just using duller mixer channel preamps.

Steve

[out1ear]

used to do a lot of live work with True Precision 8's. They sound great, nice n round, open w/ really nice top.

They also have great i/o : 6 xlr in 2 combo jacks w/ mic or di on channels 1 and 2 w/ m/s encoding as well.

8 trs outs as well as dsub outs.

they sound fantastic, take up only 1 rack space, and run only a little over $300/channel.(between $2500-2600 new)