Classical Guitar Recording technique

[Rokus666]

I am trying to get the right microphone for my brazilian rosewood guitar and want to be able to do some straight up classical pieces and some close miked pop tunes as well. I have a large control room and smaller booth(14x11) which is semi-treated. I have recorded it so many times using so many different microphones and never happy with the sound.
I have red some posts about schoeps mics which are ridiculously over-priced and I don't think they make such a huge difference in sound quality.
I am aware that I need a good room, but I need to record an album in a smaller sized room and possibly get away with adding some convolution reverbs. I need to find a way to record the most natural sound possible without some misterious brazilian rosewood overtones popping into the microphone.
Any recommendation for the microphone pair ? I can not affor to buy a microphone and test it out hoping to get a good sound...

Condenser Mics I own:

2 AT PZM
2 Rode K2
1 AT4033
1 AKG C1000
1 AKG C4000b
1 MXL V67

Preamps:
2ch LA 610
14ch Trident S80 (modded)

Planning to get something neutral sounding like AT4050, Studio Projects CS5, AKG C451's
Any classical guitar slut out there that can convince me which microphone to get?
I have heard many recordings done by different record companies and most of them sound like a muddy ass, no tone, no personality and some of independent label recordings sound freaking amazing.
I need a big sound with balls, but not too much up front because brazilian rosewood comes out weird on microophones.
examples demo: MySpace.com - Ethnotronik(Roko Djokovic) - New york, New York - Classical / Electronica / Experimental - www.myspace.com/ethnotronik
Chiasmus- recorded with single AKG 451 close-miked small room
B- recorded with AT4033 close miked
Urban folk No5 recorded with AT4033 all using motu828 preamps(amazing tormenting sound of plastic garbage)

This time I want to do it right with the best possible quality. Full length album of originals. Any help/advice would be greatly appreciate as I can not afford to buy studio time in a professional facility. As I record periodically with only couple of edits per piece, this will be tedious process. I am able to do some microphone shootouts in my room with different patterns and test out the sounds as I seek an advice from the professionals. Looking forward to get some feedback.
Cheers

[Karloff70]

The Schoeps may be expensive but they are indeed great for the task.....also great are Gefell M295(flat response) or M294(+5dB bump@ 8kHz). I used to have a pair of M294's and on classical they are very defined + because of the top bump (which is smooth as butter by the way, unlike, say a KM-184) you can get away from the guitar a bit without loosing too much definition, which would probably help your 'rosewood problem' as I guess you mean you get funny bumps in the middle....the other thing is, is it the rosewood or maybe more likely bumps in your rooms response..? Very subjective this, as only you know which harmonics you want up there and which annoy you......different mics will sound 'good' in 'different angles'. Also great are Gefell M300, although their noise level is a bit on the borderline side for classical, and they're flat aswell, but with a clean pre you should be fine. Sound very lifelike.

All of this is relative stuff though....having listened to your stuff (nice playing!!) the 451 works better than the 4033 for sure, which makes me think M294 would really work......still, not entirely cheap to get....good luck!!

[Rokus666]

Definitely, there are midrange pops on a brazilian rosewood guitar. Treble is super fat with lots of sustain, and you can easily resonate E,A,D tones by playing them on treble strings and leaving bass strings to vibrate along and create some extra reflections/resonances inside the guitar body. Pretty sweet and magical.
I have to be in a really nice technical shape to get a great sound out of it and it's worth it. Maybe, my room is small and those midrange pops probably reflect more (my guess)
It seems to me when I play that brazilian rosewood, the satisfaction could be compared to listening to lushness of the vocal sound trough LA610 preamp (something in that midrange and bottom is mysterious)

I will take your advice for the microphones and try to try all of them out.
Thanks !

[Karloff70]

I play a brazilian rosewood/spruce top GV Rubio Estudio.......it's a nice sound indeed! The Gefell M294's where very nice on it and there was NO unrulyness issue in the mids, just pure clarity. In fact, as I don't play actual classical technique stuff I found it a bit too polite for me, but the definition was excellent! For what you do (from hearing) and seeing as the 451 worked quite well (also being bright, but with far less resolution and class) they should be worth trying for sure.......good luck!

[TurboJets]

Have you tried the 4033 + V67 in Blumlein config with plyboard on the floor in the iso booth? Run the guitar mics through the 610, the pzm's on the wall, compressed, through the Trident board. You should be able to get beautiful tracks with what you already have.

[Storyville]

you can afford decent studio time. Honestly, I know it's cliche but I really love the u87 at about 2.5-3 feet away for a classic guitar sound. You can find a studio with a u87 and a good pre (avalon might be too bright, perhaps something a bit wamer like UA) for 80$ and hour, depending on where you are. Otherwise, I doubt you will truly happy with the sound. I have used the AT 4033 through a UA Solo 610, I am happy with the results, but ultimately it's cutting corners. The sound is a bit dark, and classical guitar tends to have more brilliance to it.

The Blue Woodpecker has a greater capture on acoustic guitar (especially nylon string), but it's a really noisey microphone. It won't do for a solo instrument.

[BOWIE]

I think you have plenty of mics to choose from that can make a quality recording of that guitar. On a classical, positioning is everything. I have found no real rules as there are with a standard acoustic guitar. Classicals all sound so different and so do the players. You'll really just have to experiment. The 610 should forgive you of minor sins as it will compress everything a little, sweeten the top and fill out the bottom.

[Dougie Murray]

Believe me or not, the Audio-Technica AE2500 (a kickdrum mic) is awsome on accoustic instruments because the condenser and dynamic mics contained in the single housing maintain a perfect phase relationship, capturing both the body and attack of the sound.

[Rokus666]

Originally Posted by TurboJets

Have you tried the 4033 + V67 in Blumlein config with plyboard on the floor in the iso booth? Run the guitar mics through the 610, the pzm's on the wall, compressed, through the Trident board. You should be able to get beautiful tracks with what you already have.

Thanks,that's an awesome suggestion

I will set this thing up today. I was wondering about the PZM's:
I am not sure how to put them in phase. Since they have pickup angle I believe 45 degrees, if I put them on the side wall, should I face them downwards or upwards...
How big the plywood board should be? Should I sit on it or just place it in front of my seating position? This seems it will be a lot of fun getting the tone. Will post some pics and examples...

[Karloff70]

Put the ply so it's between the guitar and the main mics, so the sound can bounce off it......have fun.

[nnajar]

schoeps mk41. i know you didn't want to hear it but that's it baby. the good news is you can find them used- there's usually one or 2 on ebay and wes dooley usually has some used schoeps stock. so you can call him and ask.

and the other good news is you only need one. good mono beats bad stereo any day and if you're adding reverb there's no need for a multi miked guitar signal. i would only worry about stereo miking if you're recording in a hall and want to accurately capture the space.

I play a Buscarino Cabaret, and I mic it with the schoeps. I even carry the schoeps with me when i go record in NY in the big studios. and it will sound great with your UA preamp.

and the schoeps is worth the price difference, I promise. especially if you want the best sound you can get (you said you do). don't waste money trying every mic out there and not being happy and then finally buying the schoeps. just go buy the schoeps. any reputable dealer will let you try it out for a reasonable amount of time and return it if you don't want it so it's not a risk.

oh, and i said the mk41 which is the hypercardioid capsule. it's great in small (and big) room recording. and the reach is such you can pull it farther away from the instrument (capturing the whole instrument evenly) and still ignore parts of the room.

I can't speak more highly of this mic. especially for your application.

N

[_Morph_]

For classical guitar (violão), you could try a small condenser (451 may work nicely) 30cm away from the 14th fret, pointing at the soundhole, and yout V67 (2,5khz peak, I guess) near the bridge.

This way you get a rich stereo sound that may also be combined into a mono to taste (two sources to mix). But if you want a more spacious mono sound, go for an omni in a good room.

[Rokus666]

Originally Posted by nnajar

schoeps mk41. i know you didn't want to hear it but that's it baby. the good news is you can find them used- there's usually one or 2 on ebay and wes dooley usually has some used schoeps stock. so you can call him and ask.

and the other good news is you only need one. good mono beats bad stereo any day and if you're adding reverb there's no need for a multi miked guitar signal. i would only worry about stereo miking if you're recording in a hall and want to accurately capture the space.

I play a Buscarino Cabaret, and I mic it with the schoeps. I even carry the schoeps with me when i go record in NY in the big studios. and it will sound great with your UA preamp.

and the schoeps is worth the price difference, I promise. especially if you want the best sound you can get (you said you do). don't waste money trying every mic out there and not being happy and then finally buying the schoeps. just go buy the schoeps. any reputable dealer will let you try it out for a reasonable amount of time and return it if you don't want it so it's not a risk.

oh, and i said the mk41 which is the hypercardioid capsule. it's great in small (and big) room recording. and the reach is such you can pull it farther away from the instrument (capturing the whole instrument evenly) and still ignore parts of the room.

I can't speak more highly of this mic. especially for your application.

N

is mk41 just the cardioid capsule ?
Which is the model of the microphone you are using ?

[HeavyG]

Low End Theory now includes $1000 plus microphones? I must be really POOR... Oktava MK12 with the Joly Mod will work beautifully for about $349 each new. You could buy some MK12s used and get them modded for $89 each.

[TurboJets]

Originally Posted by Rokus666

Thanks,that's an awesome suggestion

I was wondering about the PZM's:

How big the plywood board should be? Should I sit on it or just place it in front of my seating position?

try just 1 pzm for room reflections - flat against the wall of course. Not sure what you mean by "facing up or down..."

The plyboard should just be on the floor under your chair to create floor reflections.

[Rokus666]

Originally Posted by HeavyG

Low End Theory now includes $1000 plus microphones? I must be really POOR... Oktava MK12 with the Joly Mod will work beautifully for about $349 each new. You could buy some MK12s used and get them modded for $89 each.

What do you mean by getting them modded ???????

[TurboJets]

OktavaMod - Shop

Worth every penny IMHO

[Rokus666]

Originally Posted by TurboJets

OktavaMod - Shop

Worth every penny IMHO

I will seriously check this out. Small diaframe ribbon mic on a budget...interesting.
How does that mod compares to R121 sound ?
I am thinking of getting the stereo pair.
I've seen LOMO large capsules for mk12. Does that do anything special, or it's just a piece of metal that you screw on the top?
Really curious to see this moded mic in action....

[matyas]

Even the unmodded Oktava MC012 sounds good on classical guitar. (Schoeps, Sennheiser, or Neumann would probably be better, but the OP couldn't afford that and neither can I.) Personally, I would prefer stereo (though not overly wide) for this.

[Rokus666]

Originally Posted by TurboJets

try just 1 pzm for room reflections - flat against the wall of course. Not sure what you mean by "facing up or down..."

The plyboard should just be on the floor under your chair to create floor reflections.

AT pzm microphone has a directional 45-60 degrees pattern. I was wondering if I should place it toward the floor or the sealing ?

[Rokus666]

From the mod shop you can get new Mk12 MSP6 matched stereo pair modded for 860.00
Is there a better deal out there ?

[jnorman]

A pair of AT4050s in Blumlein can be extremely effective on classical guitar.

[TurboJets]

Originally Posted by Rokus666

AT pzm microphone has a directional 45-60 degrees pattern. I was wondering if I should place it toward the floor or the sealing ?

toward the ceiling, see how the reflections turn out. you're using the pzm just as a room mic to capture ambient reflections.

[scrubs]

If the room is decent, an omni condenser (or spaced pair) a few feet back will sound great. Since this is "low-end" I've used the Naiant studios omnis and even those cheap measurement mics from Behringer (ECM8000) with some success. Self-noise is higher, though.