sub-dj mixers into main pa mixers

[maks]

hi, im doing live sound where sub/dj mixers feed stereo to the main pa mixer...often i just run these outs into line-ins, yet some, especially dj mixer outs are really hot and it feels like my inputs are about to fry even with its pads on...its a constant struggle to remind DJ's to not push into red, alot of times they like that effect, whatever, i was thinking of getting a Radial JDI-duplex direct box for padding and other possible sound benefits(smooth out over's, using pa mixers mic pre's), although some say the transformers in the jdi will color too much in more subtle applications? are there any real benefits to interfacing mixers via direct box's? any rule of thumb suggestions for such scenarios? personal experience welcomed thnx.

[mohthom]

I find the best line of defense against DJs who like to play hot is to educate. Show them the squarewaves you get when you push too hard, let them know that if they push the volume then you'll just pull it back down (if you're not running through a limiter before the mixer anyway), and make sure that they know that you're there to make them sound good - the only reason to turn them down is to comply with the law, not to spoil their sets.

The only solution for DJs that want to run hot all the time (to the point of ruining the show) is to not book them. If they know how they're mangling the sound, how they're breaking the law and how much pain they're putting the punters in, pull the plug - it's the only responsible thing to do. Educate first, punish second.

MohThoM

[Reptil]

this is my experience as well. (djs running it way too hot)

if you want to get a dj mixer, check if it's got balanced outputs.
that will do the trick. if the s/n level is too low, because of long cable runs, and a crappy amp inside the dj mixer, try some line amps.

[huub]

They like to see the reds.. Even if the mixer is digital..
Overappreciated dumb idiots..

[aussie_techie]

some times you just have to stop worrying about them and just compress/limit the crap out of them even though their music might be so compressed to start with there is nothing else you can do. i always see comps/limiters holding djs down 10-20db and yet even when you try to tell them to turn down because its not actually getting any louder they either dont listen or just dont get it.

if its a mobile setup then DIs are your best bet so you can isolate your system from theirs. dont worry about coloration as in those situations no one can hear the difference even with cheap DIs and a radial is going to perform well anyway.

if its a fixed install then your best to look at how your staging line amps/mixers comps/limiters and processors and of course how much clubs are willing to spend.

[NorseHorse]

I've heard of live sound guys using monitors to blast guitarists or vocalists who were way to loud in an attempt to get them to back off. Perhaps you might try something similar with the DJ...

[aussie_techie]

most DJs insist on a monitor anyway and most will damage drivers long before they realise they are pushing a system to hard.

there is just little sense to the whole situation when you deal with most DJs

[mohthom]

Off switch . . .

We have legal limits in the UK which most DJs think they are impervious to. WRONNNGGGGGG!!!!!! Some councils actually operate using SPL meters with killswitches built in.

Education is the best method of control.

MohThoM

[theDBC]

Originally Posted by maks

hi, im doing live sound where sub/dj mixers feed stereo to the main pa mixer...often i just run these outs into line-ins, yet some, especially dj mixer outs are really hot and it feels like my inputs are about to fry even with its pads on...its a constant struggle to remind DJ's to not push into red, alot of times they like that effect, whatever, i was thinking of getting a Radial JDI-duplex direct box for padding and other possible sound benefits(smooth out over's, using pa mixers mic pre's), although some say the transformers in the jdi will color too much in more subtle applications? are there any real benefits to interfacing mixers via direct box's? any rule of thumb suggestions for such scenarios? personal experience welcomed thnx.

Don't worry about color, the DJs don't care or don't know what it is if they don't know how to control their output. DIs with a pad are great. How high profile is the gig? If it's big money, go ahead and get the Radial. If it's not a big gig, you can do just as well with a pair of Behringer DIs at a fraction of the cost.

Engage the pad, add a limiter to the channels on the board.

I go through the same thing you have every 2 weeks. Education doesn't work, the trick of blasting their monitors only makes them happier. Protect your system first, do what you can about the distortion (you could engage the high pass and tell them that their hot signal is clipping the sub amp- turn down or no bass) and let them do their thing.

[maks]

an update, thanks to all who responded, good suggestions, education is definetly the way, but sometimes no time when theres a festival with 5 or more dj's or some showing up 2 minutes before the gig. I went ahead and got the jdi duplex for my own security, and am happy to say it made a nice difference, much better with overall levels, smoother, even when the dreaded "reds" came on occasionally.. Personally i dont like any compression(plenty going on in mixes), sometimes a brickwall limiter when pa isnt well matched or balanced, even then the amps usually limit well enough(crowns 5024's,qsc's rmx's). I try to keep the amps @ 70-80% power tops.

[unclejoe]

If it's a pioneer mixer, they usualy have an little output trim knob on the back, so you can turn his output down by several dbs and he still thinks he's driving it (or her)

[drtechno]

on dj mixers, I've use the REC out on them and control the level , otherwiese if they have that pioneer mixer with trs line outs that has the swicthable pad on the back, I've use that.

the pioneer djm xlr's are really hot (almost 8V of signal coming out max) and should be ony used on line level equipment that can handle +18 dbu to +24 dbu of signal.

if I'm tieing multiple dj mixers, I use a passive mixer (SM Pro Audio PM8 ) and do my master gain on the crossover. use one of the masters for foh and the other for booth. if I also have MC vocals then I plug the PM8 Master 1 and the vocal mics into another mixer(one with mic pre's of course) and send a seperate monitor mix (vocal only, compressed vocal channel, bypass eq on the dj mixer channels ) to a floor wedge but sill use Master 2 of the PM8 as booth monitoring.

and yes, I use a pair of JBL SR 4712 plus a QSC3002 because they respect the booth level afterwards

[tombak]

Today's DJs usually don't understand sound systems so it's easy to trick them.

Two ways:

1. Take 4 INs off of them from DIs. 1 stereo pair to FOH the other stereo pair to their monitor(s).
Set the gain on the monitor pair super high so they clip the console's input channel easily when they get too loud. DJs can't mix so well with a bad monitor feed so they'll instinctually turn down or just tell them they need to turn their mains down because they're clipping the FOH and it sounds like shit and people are talking shit on the DJ.

2. If you don't want to have a pair of your channels on your console clipping instead insert a compressor into the monitor feed and smash the shit out of their signal and tell them the same story. "Hey Bro you gotta turn down cuz my monitors are gonna blow!!!" The compressor will make it hard for them to mix with such little dynamic range and life to their sound and your monitors will be relatively safe and your FOH won't sound smashed up. I always HP filter or cut 80hz below out out the DJ montors with out any protest.

Not so much a trick but a default way to deal with DJs.....If your console doesn't offer padding, get some external pads to insert in the signal path , bus their stereo feed to a compressor and set it to brick wall, compress their monitor feed. Have a shot of Jameson, turn off your booth light and take a nap.

Keeping the stage volume loud often helps from the DJ to constantly want to turn up. Having a full range monitoring system with sub is sometimes helpful though can be problematic when DJ is using vinyl. Depending on the DJs I'll give them their own control over monitors if I feel I can trust them, this way they also are less likely to keep driving the mains louder and louder.

PS I'm a DJ of 17 years, I know both sides of the booth. If you experience some nasty DJs with attitude PM and I'll let you know of some unethical sound engineer shit you can do to ffuucckk'em up.

[Remoteness]

Get a couple of -40 dB (XLR barrel) PADs, plug them into the XLR inputs of the desk and be done with it.

I just did this a few weeks ago with great results.