Way OT: Mic for capturing muzzle sound of rifle??

[JDavisNJ]

I'm curious as to how I can mic the sound of a rifle, at a shooting range. I need something that can handle the decible level (180db max according to google) and am unsure what to use.

I haven't heard of a condenser that can handle this decibel range, so what are my options?

This is for video editing. I would like to capture an accurate sound at the range. Lots of low budget videos make it sound nothing like the original sound.

Where would be an ideal location for this? The shooter will be filmed as well. Most likely on his/her right.

This is very off topic, I know...but I wasn't sure which forum to ask in.

Thanks

-Joe

[NorseHorse]

You could record farther back...

Either way, you're going to need a separate mic to record the blast. The levels will be totally different from the rest of your shot (pun intended?!).

PS. This isn't off-topic at all. Thanks for posting! Hopefully others will have more specific suggestions. I've never recorded anything like that.

[JDavisNJ]

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, I definitely intend on using an external mic into the jack of the camera. I'm just not sure which to use.

I'll also need some type of XLR-->1/8" adapter if that exists.

Sorry for such newb questions, I've never done anything like this before.

-Joe

[David Spearritt]

Bruce Koenig (FBI) is a world expert on this subject, try to find some of his papers. Here is a start.
BEK TEK LLC, Audio & Video Forensics

and one by Maher,
http://www.coe.montana.edu/ee/rmaher...07_109-113.pdf

Sorry, this is the paper where Koenig examines what mics and tape recorder responses are capable of capturing the gunshot accurately.
AES E-Library: Signal Convolution of Recorded Free-Field Gunshot Sounds by Koenig, Bruce E.; Hoffman, Shawn M.; Nakasone, Hirotaka; Beck, Steven D.

[JDavisNJ]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Bruce Koenig (FBI) is a world expert on this subject, try to find some of his papers. Here is a start.
BEK TEK LLC, Audio & Video Forensics

and one by Maher,
http://www.coe.montana.edu/ee/rmaher...07_109-113.pdf

Sorry, this is the paper where Koenig examines what mics and tape recorder responses are capable of capturing the gunshot accurately.
AES E-Library: Signal Convolution of Recorded Free-Field Gunshot Sounds by Koenig, Bruce E.; Hoffman, Shawn M.; Nakasone, Hirotaka; Beck, Steven D.

Thanks man! Just what I needed.

Cheers

-Joe

[Karl_Lohninger]

Joe, capturing gun shots isn't that difficult even with basic equipment. But, going directly into a video camera is something I would not do, at least get yourself a decent small mixer like a Sound Devices 302.

It's unfortunately true that the sound of gun or pistol shots we hear in tv or film production has pretty much nothing to do with how these weapons really sound. Not even close as some of us might know.

If you want it real, always think of the camera's position. Think of perspective. It doesn't make sense to close-mike a gun when the viewpoint is 50 yards away and from behind....;-)

Bring a decent dynamic mic ( Shure SM 57/58 will do). You've got usually 2 audio tracks, so bring a second microphone and split them - the second one could be further away and get some reflections or just a different viewpoint if the camera is moving. If you feel adventurous and you could bring a shotgun type (no pun intended here) with you and position that further away (if it's a loud gun go 100ft or more) pointing at the source.

Check carefully your gain setting during some test shoots, be very conservative, listen to your test captures to make sure there's no over modulation and voila.

Have fun, be safe, and always wear ear plugs! Be very careful with your headphone volume settings - make sure it is announced clearly and understood by everybody when shots are fired. In such situations I tend to use headphones only for monitoring recordings afterwards. Even with professionals and fun and safety supervisors on location, mistakes are always made.

No need to make it complicated, but.....should you have access to a decent Nagra tape machine, go for it.....;-)

Karl

[Kyle S]

Heat stood out to me as having the best gun reports of most movies.

Also the sound varies according to the environment and orientation of the mic(s) and where the muzzle is pointing. If your used to a particular piece of land, you can tell if a shooter is shooting towards you or away from you by listening to the report.

I have a range set up behind my house that goes down into a valley (-100ft) about 2 miles back. You can hear the sound as it travels down the corridor all the way till theres nothing left.

Nothing really useful i guess just thoughts. What kind of gun are you recording? Good luck!

Also, if your close to the shooter, your going to pick up other sounds necessary to the operation of the gun if it's a auto-loading type such as the bolt cycling and brass ejecting. Which you may or may not want.

[JDavisNJ]

Thanks for the replies fellas...

I'm not quite sure the mixer is necessary. I do want something that sounds realistic and such, but this is mainly for home videos and something to help me fool around with video editing on. Although I wouldn't be totally against a cheap one.

Thanks for the recommendation; I was probably going to bring an SM57 anyway. Maybe I'll pick up another for this task.

I was thinking of micing it from around 10 ft away maybe? Maybe a bit closer?

I will become familiar with the new range I'm going to for a few times before I start recording the sound.


The rifle will be a Saiga 7.62x39.

-Joe

[JDavisNJ]

Oh yes, and ear plugs are a given! My hearing has been too f***ed already. Tinnitus is a bitch!

-Joe

[JDavisNJ]

Here is a video where I think they captured the muzzle sound quite well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXHGAXqFkz4

Thanks!

-Joe

[JDavisNJ]

That Sound Devices mixer looks very nice, but a bit too much $$ for me right now.

-Joe

[phil.]

Hi Joe,

A few years back I tested three location recorders at a shooting range by recording various rifle shots as well as a black powder gun.
The recorders were a Nagra V, Nagra 4S and a Tascam DAP-1. Apart from having a great day, we found quite a few interesting side efects in both digital recorders that weren't present in the recordings to the S4. If you have the chance of getting hold of a tape based recorder it would certainly be worth your while.

Also try setting up a few microphones at different distances and compare them in Post Production later on. We had one mic near the target area and captured some great sounds there as well. I also remember that we captured a few shots that were distorted but didn't relaize it until we had a chance to look at the wave forms later on. It's pretty tough to make out a slightly distorted gun shot just by listening!

Karl has given some great advice and the papers that David posted should get you well on the way!

Looking forward to some samples, if you can!

Have fun and always be careful!

Phil.

[JDavisNJ]

Originally Posted by phil.

Hi Joe,

A few years back I tested three location recorders at a shooting range by recording various rifle shots as well as a black powder gun.
The recorders were a Nagra V, Nagra 4S and a Tascam DAP-1. Apart from having a great day, we found quite a few interesting side efects in both digital recorders that weren't present in the recordings to the S4. If you have the chance of getting hold of a tape based recorder it would certainly be worth your while.

Also try setting up a few microphones at different distances and compare them in Post Production later on. We had one mic near the target area and captured some great sounds there as well. I also remember that we captured a few shots that were distorted but didn't relaize it until we had a chance to look at the wave forms later on. It's pretty tough to make out a slightly distorted gun shot just by listening!

Karl has given some great advice and the papers that David posted should get you well on the way!

Looking forward to some samples, if you can!

Have fun and always be careful!

Phil.

Phil,

Thanks for the tips! Yeah, I basically planned on bringing a couple mics and testing different positions. I want to have something close to the video I posted above.

I think I am going to find a cheaper portable mixer for the job. Something with a readable meter so I know I'm not clipping.

I'm thinking maybe one mic a couple feet out, parallel to the barrel, and maybe one back towards the shooter. I'd like to capture a decent image of the gunshot.

Thanks for all the links and help so far guys. I'm trying to let it all sink in, so please excuse my lack of enthusiasm at the current moment!

I'm also concerned at what heigh to place the mics. I'm guessing shooter/ear height would be the most logical.

thanks

-Joe

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by Karl_Lohninger

It's unfortunately true that the sound of gun or pistol shots we hear in tv or film production has pretty much nothing to do with how these weapons really sound. Not even close as some of us might know.

The reason for this is that most equipment and "measurement" techniques we normally use do not meet the technical demands required to capture the signals with enough fidelity. Bruce Koenig goes into this in detail. Its a technical problem, and in those papers.

[huub]

Yeah, but we're so used to the film sound of shooting, it's really better to fake it I think..
I recorded the military shooting championships once, and all guns, be it small or large caliber, sounded like a weak 'pang' to me ( with 416's both on camera (cabled to ccu on multicam shoot) and on cable straight to mic amp )..

[softwareguy]

I think I am going to find a cheaper portable mixer for the job. Something with a readable meter so I know I'm not clipping.

Remember that a VU Meter is not going to accurately tell you if you are clipping or not, since it is reading RMS. A Peak Meter (usually LED's) will be better, because the sound of a gunshot is one king-hell of a peak.

Also, FWIW, my guess is that you would want to be at least 10 feet away from a 7.62 with your mic, probably more like 20 or 30 feet to keep from over-modulating. You will certainly find out quickly, and I for one would love to hear what you learn.

Sounds like a really fun project, good luck!

[huub]

Originally Posted by JDavisNJ

Here is a video where I think they captured the muzzle sound quite well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXHGAXqFkz4

Thanks!

-Joe

Hmm, although this one indeed sounds pretty good!

[JDavisNJ]

Thanks for the replies guys, much appreciated.

Yeah, I plan to experiment with distances and such, mic positions, etc. If I could get away with one mic...perhaps a mic that I can attach to the camera, I'll be happy. I'll try my hardest not to make it clip...Just need to find a thresh hold of where it actually clips/

I will post the results eventually.

Thanks!

-Joe

[iluvatar]

Originally Posted by JDavisNJ

I was thinking of micing it from around 10 ft away maybe? Maybe a bit closer?

No. You'll want it farther.

I recently did a gun shoot w/ a spaced pair of Naked Eyes w/ Roswellite about 15' in front of the gun, a pair of Gefell M295's about 6' behind the shooter (and about 8' of the ground), a pair of Gefell MT71S' about 75' away, an STO2 sitting on the ground underneath the shooting bench, and a wireless lav on the shooter.

The lav and the 295's were completely useless. The capsules just got overloaded. The Naked Eye's had a nice sharp 'pop' but nothing more. The STO2 had sort of an odd, but usefull woofy sound (if you've played America's Army, it sounded like one of the sniper rifles). The MT71S' had wimpy 'pops' but most of the echo. Nothing really got the low end very well.

Close mic'ing the guns like you would a snare or a guitar amp will not get you the result you hope for or expect.

-Dan.

[Shadow_7]

Originally Posted by JDavisNJ

I'll also need some type of XLR-->1/8" adapter if that exists.

Depends on how you define exist. I'm actually looking at getting a cam. And plan on using my Korg MR-1000 as the go between. The headphone out via 1/4" to 1/8" adapter, with a double male 1/8" cable from one of my computer monitors with speakers == my adapter. Of course I'll be using the Korg Audio in post. Depending on how much time/effort I want to invest anyway.

You could try putting some distance between to dampen the sound dB levels. You could also put the mic between two pillows or something to lower it's dB input, thus raising the dB tollerance. Which could also double as extra wind screen type protection. Just make sure it's all secure so you're not getting handling noise. And I think most movie sounds use a ton of compression on the shots so it sounds less like a ping.

The firing of a gun does sound different down range than from the gun or behind. In the army we had a bunkered down range portion of basic, where we put markers on an elevated target at the 500 meter, or was it 1,000 meter range. Which was neat in that you'd hear the impact a second or more before the shot. As one shot hit a nail which fragmented and injured one of the soldiers behind the concrete protection. Nothing more serious than a paper cut-ish / kitchen accident type injury. But caused at least one nervous individual to freak a bit.

[Kyle S]

Man I love Saiga's. Came so close to buying an S12 but the prices started getting way crazy. Ended up buying a 10/22 instead. Still thinking about the .223 and the rifle your recording but depends on how the market is. Might go with the new mini-14 NRA instead to keep from messing with all the importing bs.

Good luck!

[JDavisNJ]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Yes, I supposed further micing is necessary. Again, I'm going to experiment with distance and see what I come up with. I also want to try to mic outside of the overhand at the range.

I guess the jack size isn't a big deal. Depends on which mixer and camera I'm using...Oh and the mic of course.

Yep, Saigas seem very cool for the price. The 7.62 by me is around $360, but NJ always gets screwed on anything related to guns...so I can't complain!



-Joe

[andy_simpson]

Originally Posted by iluvatar

No. You'll want it farther.

I recently did a gun shoot w/ a spaced pair of Naked Eyes w/ Roswellite about 15' in front of the gun, a pair of Gefell M295's about 6' behind the shooter (and about 8' of the ground), a pair of Gefell MT71S' about 75' away, an STO2 sitting on the ground underneath the shooting bench, and a wireless lav on the shooter.

The lav and the 295's were completely useless. The capsules just got overloaded. The Naked Eye's had a nice sharp 'pop' but nothing more. The STO2 had sort of an odd, but usefull woofy sound (if you've played America's Army, it sounded like one of the sniper rifles). The MT71S' had wimpy 'pops' but most of the echo. Nothing really got the low end very well.

-Dan.

There can be no better example of equal loudness effect.

Given the SPL difference between the source & playback it is not surprising that the sound was 'wimpy' & 'lacking bass' on playback.

Andy

[tenor39]

Originally Posted by JDavisNJ

I'm curious as to how I can mic the sound of a rifle, at a shooting range. I need something that can handle the decible level (180db max according to google) and am unsure what to use.

I haven't heard of a condenser that can handle this decibel range, so what are my options?


-Joe

The DPA 4004 will come very close and I have used it to record the Space Shuttle @ less than a mile, where SPL's are near 170dB.

Type 4004

Reference Microphone, 130 V

Description Specifications Related products Related pages Graphs and more

The Type 4004 is an omnidirectional hi-voltage (130 V) close miking specialist with an extended on-axis frequency response from 10 Hz to 40 kHz (±2 dB). The 4004 is a Reference condenser microphone specially designed to handle extremely high sound pressure levels - up to 168 dB SPL before clipping occurs. It has an unbeatable dynamic range of 124 dB from the noise floor to 1% THD and an extended headroom of 20 dB up to clipping level due to the special hi-voltage powering system. The 4004 is acoustically identical with the reference microphone Type 4007, but differs in the powering system and the fact that the 4004 has a transformerless output. 4004 is totally transparent and is the perfect choice in all close miking recording situations regardless of the sound source.

[JDavisNJ]

Originally Posted by tenor39

The DPA 4004 will come very close and I have used it to record the Space Shuttle @ less than a mile, where SPL's are near 170dB.

Thanks for the suggestion!

-Joe

[TMI]

What you are looking for is a measurement mic. Like a B&K 4135 with a 1/4" to 1/2" adapter and a 2615 follower. There is an 1/8" mic in the series with an even higher SPL rating.

I also used to have an Altec 1/2" capsule rated to 180db SPL. There is quite a bit of this stuff around surplus from various aerospace contractors. You have to do the math and figure out exactly how much voltage will be produced at that SPL. If it exceeds the follower's maximum output rating, you may need a capsule pad. A mic pre is out of the question as you can expect a 33 volt peak out of the capsule/follower.

You asked specifically for a muzzle sound. To get that, the mic has to be closer to the muzzle than the distance from the muzzle to the ground, preferably, a lot closer. The signal you record will be a very quick pop, with none of the hangover or bass associated with the movies. If you can't put the shooter on a platform, several bales of fiberglass (12' X 12' X 6-12" thick) can be spread out on the ground to clean up the early arrival.

After you have done all of this, chances are the producer will not like the raw result but this is no matter. The EQ, compression, gating and synthetic reverb will be much more realistic with a really clean track and will match the acoustic environment of your other effects.

None of the mics others suggested are suitable for this task, however, it would not hurt to use them at respectable distances to separate recording tracks and weed out what you want in post. DON'T mix them at the site. You will only get the impulse response of a 57 in this app. The 4006/4004 B&Ks need to be a considerable distance away or they may be damaged.

In any case, you will need a scope to see what is really happening at the mic output. At a high enough sweep speed, the top of the peak will still be slightly rounded. The voltage you measure must then be attenuated to something the recorder will accept.

One other point. These mics DO NOT have a 180 db dynamic range. Noise floors of 74 dba are not uncommon. You can get 106 db under optimum conditions. If you want the acoustic tails of the shooting range or gun noises you have to use low noise mics at a respectable distance and assemble it all in post.

If you do it right, those in the know will be ducking for cover in the audience. It's that rare.

Heat was a good example of something close.

[JDavisNJ]

Originally Posted by TMI

What you are looking for is a measurement mic. Like a B&K 4135 with a 1/4" to 1/2" adapter and a 2615 follower. There is an 1/8" mic in the series with an even higher SPL rating.

I also used to have an Altec 1/2" capsule rated to 180db SPL. There is quite a bit of this stuff around surplus from various aerospace contractors. You have to do the math and figure out exactly how much voltage will be produced at that SPL. If it exceeds the follower's maximum output rating, you may need a capsule pad. A mic pre is out of the question as you can expect a 33 volt peak out of the capsule/follower.

You asked specifically for a muzzle sound. To get that, the mic has to be closer to the muzzle than the distance from the muzzle to the ground, preferably, a lot closer. The signal you record will be a very quick pop, with none of the hangover or bass associated with the movies. If you can't put the shooter on a platform, several bales of fiberglass (12' X 12' X 6-12" thick) can be spread out on the ground to clean up the early arrival.

After you have done all of this, chances are the producer will not like the raw result but this is no matter. The EQ, compression, gating and synthetic reverb will be much more realistic with a really clean track and will match the acoustic environment of your other effects.

None of the mics others suggested are suitable for this task, however, it would not hurt to use them at respectable distances to separate recording tracks and weed out what you want in post. DON'T mix them at the site. You will only get the impulse response of a 57 in this app. The 4006/4004 B&Ks need to be a considerable distance away or they may be damaged.

In any case, you will need a scope to see what is really happening at the mic output. At a high enough sweep speed, the top of the peak will still be slightly rounded. The voltage you measure must then be attenuated to something the recorder will accept.

One other point. These mics DO NOT have a 180 db dynamic range. Noise floors of 74 dba are not uncommon. You can get 106 db under optimum conditions. If you want the acoustic tails of the shooting range or gun noises you have to use low noise mics at a respectable distance and assemble it all in post.

If you do it right, those in the know will be ducking for cover in the audience. It's that rare.

Heat was a good example of something close.

Thanks much for the detailed reply. I'm attempting to absorb it all right now.

When I said muzzle sound, I was just referring to accurately capturing the sound of a rifle. More of a "live" sound if you will. I'd love to get the echo/trails captured as well.

I guess I would need to be a considerable distance away for this to work then, right?

-Joe