ORTF vs Spaced Pair?

[just.sounds]

Hi.

For me a general rule of thumb is that with increasingly dead acoustics i use less spacing and more directional working. so i would go with the ORTF if the room is any good. With mono omni spots.

If the room S**** then i would choose the close stereo pairs. But i would try to position the pairs so that they are positioned like i want in the stereo image.

The outriggers are not my cup of tea for small ensembles

[Don S]

Start with the flutes. I almost always prefer omnis. But get the best sound/stage on the flute and whatever is left over I would use as piano spot(s)
Since it is a small ensemble, I would start with AB then try ORTF.

[Plush]

ORTF pair does the job.
No omni, no spots.
Add reverb later.

Classic technique!

[fifthcircle]

Stick with the ORTF as your main pickup. If you go with a spaced pair, your image will bounce when your flute player moves.

If the room can handle the sound of omnis, you can augment with a set of omnis, but be aware that while omnis are great, they also will pick up everything that is bad with a room.

--Ben

[Audiop]

Maybe try a relatively wide spaced AB relatively close to the piano and place the flute player to the side off one mic. Make sure the two mics and the flute end up on a line and that the distance between the mics is three times (or more) than the distance between the flute and the closest mic.

This will be as good as immune to movement off the flute I think.


/Peter

[leddy]

What about a Jecklin disc?

[7rojo7]

Put the piano where it sounds good, let the players adjust themselves so they can best hear themselves, don't intervene unless it's necessary. Find a place where their placement sounds good, offer any advice to make this better if it's needed. If you don't already have all the mics plugged in that you want to try, do so now. Put them in the most logical spots according to your limitations.
I think the ORTF only solution is pretty nifty, If you have multitrack capability, print some mono omni spots to use if you need to reinforce one of the instruments.
These kind of dates are usually editing intensive and the need to reinforce an instrument is made moot by fixes done to the performance.
If you put up spot mics, stand where each sound comes from and clap a few times slowly, you can use this sound to time align the spots.
I like to use an xy with an omni, but that's just me.

[jnorman]

so, i did the session saturday, and used an ORTF pair at about 7-8 feet out and also a pair of omnis about 5 feet out. both pairs turned out very good sounding, and now the problem is deciding which pair to actually use...

[NorseHorse]

How about posting a comparison for us to listen to!?

[boojum]

JN - Pls post two tracks of your results. With omni's I do not get the precise location I get with cards in XY, MS or ORTF. ORTF is a little vaguer, just like the books says.

When I do omnis and cards I use the omnis very lightly for "bass and space."

I am interested in what you have recorder. Give it up! ;o)

[jnorman]

okay - i will try to put together a couple of clips and post them.

[jnorman]

okay here are some short clips (mp3s) of the ORTF (AT4051s) vs spaced omnis (AT4022s):

ORTF1 is the beginning of the Doppler Fantasie with the AT4051s
OMNI1 is the begiining section with the AT4022s
ORTF2 is a short solo section with the 4051s
OMNI2 is the solo section with the AT4022s

[jnorman]

btw, the ORTF pair was about 7 feet out. the spaced omnis were about 5 feet out. very dry studio space, so each recording has a minimal amount of a piano hall reverb (decay time set at 2.0 sec, predelay at 30ms).

[jnorman]

this was my first time using the new AT4022s. i thought they did a pretty nice job, and seem smoother than my AT4050s in the omni setting. the 4051s always do a pretty good job.

[jnorman]

i would really appreciate any comments you might have on the clips, bad or good. i could use some experienced feedback on how i can improve this kind of recording. is the reverb level about right, is it the right kind of reverb space for this type of music, is it too intimate (should the mics be further out), noise levels, is the EQ okay (it has a little bottom end added, and a little rolloff at around 4k), any other considerations, suggestions, etc.

and yes, i know my poor old kimball baby grand needs some serious help, but it is all i have for audition work like this.

thanks.

[Audiop]

I think the clips sounds nice and I prefer the slightly more open and relaxed omni-take listening with HD650.

Good overall tonal balance in all clips allthough maybe a little thick in the low mids (listening to the piano. Part of that is the HD650. I'll try to listen agin with the HD650 EQ'd a little.

Nice intimate listening with a good sense of the room (which seems to be a good room).

Tiny bit of noise is audible which I guess is the mics.


/Peter

[mljung]

I liked the clips too, actually I think they're pretty excellent. And although I personally dislike to use artificial reverb on classical, I wouldn't have guessed it if you hadn't told me; I would have believed this was natural acoustics.
Can't find out if I prefer the extra focus of the ORTF pair. Maybe the tonal character is a little better too, but I'm not sure, the omni recording also has it's merits. BTW how far apart were the omnis?
[do you have photos from the session?]
If I was forced to say something it could be that the piano could be a tad more focused and maybe have a tiny bit more weight.

If this is your first piano/flute recording, you've got a very good beginning!
Nice and atmospheric

Seems as if those AT microphones does a good job here, and maybe the 4022 is a good candidate for another thread: Mid-priced pressure omnis?

If you have the recordings without EQ too, it would be easier to judge the microphones.

Best,
Mads

[jnorman]

thanks peter and mads. the omnis were spaced about 45cm (18") apart.

[bradley]

This is a beautiful recording. Very nicely performed!

I think (listening on AKG 701's) that I just prefer the Omni's but its a tough call and there really isn't a lot in it to be honest. On my headphones they both sound fairly similar!

I'm thinking about getting a pair of Omni's at some point and will consider the AT4022's to complement my Beyer MC930's. I'm also thinking about the Rode NT55 pair as they are a great price and have heard some good things about them.

Once again, very nice recording.

[bradley]

Just curious, what preamps did you use?

[jnorman]

hi bradley - thanks. yes, i have read some good comments on the little rodes also. i had a pair of the nt5s a while back, and they had a very similar sound to km184s (a little bright for me). however, you can use the omni capsules on the older NT5s as well as the newer nt55s if you want to save a few $, and from what i have read thte omni caps are supposed to be pretty good - more transparent and accurate than the card caps.

the 4051s went trhough a borrowed HV3b and the omnis went through the pres on an echo audiofire. i switched pres on both and really couldnt hear much difference - of course this was only two tracks, and i would assume the lower noise and higher end components in the HV3 would give you much cleaner results if you do 8 tracks or more.

[mljung]

Originally Posted by bradley

I'm thinking about getting a pair of Omni's at some point and will consider the AT4022's to complement my Beyer MC930's. I'm also thinking about the Rode NT55 pair as they are a great price and have heard some good things about them.

Once again, very nice recording.

4022 and Nt55 omni - Those are the exact same contenders I have right now in the mid-priced field...

[I may however spend the extra money and go for Schoeps MK-2 or Senn 8020, but haven't decided yet]

[fifthcircle]

I just took a listen to those samples you posted and honestly, I don't think either one works that well on its own... The ORTF pair sounds flat and the flute doesn't feel like it fits with the piano. It images ok from right to left, but not from front to back. The omnis have a better balance between the flute and the piano and a better tonal balance, but I'm not fond of the right to left image.

I took the two and time aligned them in the DAW and together they seem to compliment each other relatively well. The omnis fix the depth issue and also round out the low end. The ORTF pair fills in and stabilizes the center of the omnis.

Otherwise, you're getting about all you can get out of those mics. Personally, to improve on this, I would actually introduce some color which would help fill things out. It could be something like the API A2D preamp/converter or a microphone that has some more "meat" to the sound. A combination of color and clarity can be a beautiful thing in a recording. Often, I'll go for the "big fat" pair in the center and augment it with a flanking set of clear mics. One example may be a Schoeps pair going through a colored pre (API, A Designs, etc...) and then a pair of DPA omnis going through my Grace as flanking or A-B mics. That way you get the best of both worlds.

Reverb is fine. I might decrease the predelay a touch, but it is added into the recording in a very transparent way.

--Ben

[jnorman]

ben - thanks so much for the forthright comments and suggestions. I really appreciate it. i will keep working at it...

[tourtelot]

FWIW, I like the omni tracks better. It's interesting but I think the room has a lot to do with the reason I like it better.

As well, the suggestion to put this through a "colored preamp;" why in the heck would you want to do this? Aren't you trying to connect with the listener to bring them as close a version to a live performance as possible? If not, multi-mic the heck out of the two players, add some flanging and a little EMT plugin and you are all set. Oh, and put the players behind some gobos so that they have trouble hearing each other. But then it would not a very good interpretation of a live performance.

I have a string quartet to do later this month and I am flying two sets of mics. An M-S pair with a cardioid mid and an ORTF pair. I think that the M-S pair will fare better in the room, but I have been surprised before. That is why I always try to put up two rigs and compare. That's how I learn.

Just my $.02

D.

[Daniel Stark]

"As well, the suggestion to put this through a "colored preamp;" why in the heck would you want to do this? Aren't you trying to connect with the listener to bring them as close a version to a live performance as possible? If not, multi-mic the heck out of the two players, add some flanging and a little EMT plugin and you are all set. Oh, and put the players behind some gobos so that they have trouble hearing each other. But then it would not a very good interpretation of a live performance."

Get that crap outta here!!! You are putting words in someone's mouth to prove your own point. Lots of beautiful records put out through very colored equipment and it has nothing to do with multi-micing and verb plugs.

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by tourtelot

As well, the suggestion to put this through a "colored preamp;" why in the heck would you want to do this? Aren't you trying to connect with the listener to bring them as close a version to a live performance as possible? If not, multi-mic the heck out of the two players, add some flanging and a little EMT plugin and you are all set. Oh, and put the players behind some gobos so that they have trouble hearing each other. But then it would not a very good interpretation of a live performance.
.

Comeon Doug...

Let's not overstate thing here. For those that are against color, that is fine. You have your own opinion and I can respect that. Let me remind everybody, however, that the recordings from yesteryear that folks have a tendency to put on a pedestal were made with decidedly colored rigs. (ie RCA Living Stereo, Mercury, the old Decca, etc...) All those tube mics, tape decks, and tube pres (or solid state with big transformers) have a very distinct sound. Uncolored, it is not...

--Ben

[didier.brest]

I preferred the ORTF setting, more focused. The piano is a bit distant but it's convenient here because of its accompanying role, which may be not true for the whole piece.

[7rojo7]

Euphonia +2
thank god 2 cents are only worth that