MKH8040/TLM193/CMC621 Comparison

[mljung]

Originally Posted by sonare

As for Senn-- I REALLY wish they had a subcardioid.

Rich

But I think I heard John Willett mention that MKH subcardioid is planned..!?


Rich is it because you have tried both the 8020 and the 8040 and wished there was something in between?

Mads

[wildplum]

Originally Posted by Bob Bickerton

I thought the TLM193 had a 3/4" diaphragm, which would make it more of a medium diaphragm.

Exactly. I have always thought of the 193 as medium, as in between small (approximately one half inch) and large (equal to or greater than one inch).

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by sonare

If you have a 4006TL to contribute for the comparison I would be pleased to include it.

Sorry, Rich, I thought you owned a pr.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by mljung

Rich is it because you have tried both the 8020 and the 8040 and wished there was something in between?

Yes. But since I already own Mk21 I should spend the cash on another pair. Very handy fir chorus spots.

Rich

[JEGG]

Rich, thanks so much.

I'm late to the party here.

I guessed 1) TLM193, 2) Schoeps-which I did not like-but I was wrong! it was the 8040.
3) the 8040 which I liked-but I was wrong! It was the Schoeps.

This is the second time the 8040 is a no for me.

The first was with the piano clips posted on GS. I thought the piano range range from tenor a (c. 220 Hz on down to 100 or 90 or so Hz) was out of control. It sounded as if someone had EQ'd the tenor range (and lower) of the piano in a bad way. I did like the top end, however!

The other mic's did not do this to the piano, but I did not care for the hardness of the Schoeps, either. Or the relative lack of bottom.

This thread's project brought another no for me for the 8040. I guessed #1 was the TLM immediately-it sounded absolutely natural but with not much room, a product of its tonal shape and diaphragm size.

I didn't like #2. I thought that the image was strange and I did not like the quality of the sibilant sounds. Not the quantity-rather the quality. I also thought the sound was a bit hard. That's all why I thought it was Schoeps! But I'm wrong. It seemed to have some odd phase issues and the image wandered with 2B. (Those are not qualities that I associate with Schoeps, however, but then again, it wasn't Schoeps.)

I did like #3. It was the closest tonally to #1, but it was more live and had much more room. I also thought it had a round sound, unlike #2.

All of which leaves me a bit disappointed. I wanted to like the 8040's, and I have members of the now "old" MKH family, which I like. I'm afraid the 8040 is not the mic for me. I'd rather have the older 40's, which, fortunately, I do have.

I need one more pair of cardioids, and I've had this sneaking suspicion that I was going to settle on the TLM193 (which are too large for my uses and need a very expensive shockmount), or the Sanken double diaphragm cardioid which is out of the question, financially. Perhaps another pair of the 40's, or MG M300, or something else. The Schoeps are a wee bit hard for me, but it's not hard to not buy them now, the prices in the US have gone astronomically. If the DPA cardioids had any lower end I'd go for them, but then they don't.... My interest in the 193's was rekindled by d_fu use of them in a harpsichord shoot out. The last thing I'd put on a harpsichord, but it worked beautifully.

[squeegybug]

With respect JEGG, anyone who tries to make decisions about buying/not buying mics based on posted audio samples is going to be spending a long time being frustrated and confused, and probably ultimately disappointed. I had tried it for years and it just doesn't work, for me anyway. Best I could ever do was to maybe figure out a rough spectrum and price range, then get them in and use 'em on my sources in my rooms. Side by side with other references. And even then it usually takes me months to really determine all of any product's capabilities. I have read several of your posts mentioning your disappointment and reservations about the new 8000 mics... but it seems you have still never tried them yourself?

Steve

[fifthcircle]

As the person that posted those first piano clips, I wouldn't be happy with any of the examples I posted first.

The 8040 is probably not for everybody, but in a world of imperfect mics, it does very well on a large variety of sources. Sometimes Schoeps works best for me, sometimes Sennheiser. I will say that on the large variety of sources that I have used them on, I gravitate to them probably about 70% of the time. The rest of the time, I use other mics that I find will work better.

--Ben

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by JEGG

I'm afraid the 8040 is not the mic for me. I'd rather have the older 40's, which, fortunately, I do have.

That's the predominant reason why I don't intend to go shoppong for any 8040 mics anytime soon... Got a pair of 40s, too...
As for the others, I somehow find the 80x0 uncomfortably small - even my KM 131 are so small. Wouldn't mind a pair of MKH 20, somehow, they feel very solid (yet light) and the diaphragm is well protected.

My interest in the 193's was rekindled by d_fu use of them in a harpsichord shoot out.

I've never used the 193... What I did use on said shootout was a single 170, which wasn't even mine...
But as has been mentioned above, they are somewhat similar.

D.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Wouldn't mind a pair of MKH 20, somehow, they feel very solid (yet light) and the diaphragm is well protected.

Actually protected the same as the 8000 series - they are both symmetrical capsule mics with the diaphragm protected by a solid front plate - and both have the same size diaphragm.

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by d_fu

I've never used the 193... What I did use on said shootout was a single 170, which wasn't even mine... D.

My memory seems to be getting better (not) every day. Thanks for that correction-from use I know that the 193's do have a slightly different high end than the 170.

Mostly I was impressed by the speed and smoothness of the larger diaphragm mic on an instrument I wouldn't have thought to put in the sights of an LD mic. Worked very well.

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by squeegybug

With respect JEGG, anyone who tries to make decisions about buying/not buying mics based on posted audio samples is going to be spending a long time being frustrated and confused, and probably ultimately disappointed.

I wouldn't dream of making a purchase decision on a clip posted online or an example from a situation where I had not been physically present.

I would, however, make preliminary decisions on whether to audition a mic based on a number of examples I had heard, especially when other mic's that I was familiar with were used in the same set of examples.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by John Willett

Actually protected the same as the 8000 series - they are both symmetrical capsule mics with the diaphragm protected by a solid front plate - and both have the same size diaphragm.

John,

the front plate in MKH8000 series, is it covered with holes so to speak or holes only in the middle?

Reason I ask is that there is some loose stuff, possibly glue or something that shouldn't be there in one of my mics. I wonder if I should worry about it and send them in or not. If I understand (it's hard to see from outside) how the capsule and front plate is build up I think I can draw a conclusion.

I don't know if it's something that has come loose or if it's sloppy assembling. I have had problems with bad QC from Sennhesier before so I'm worried if this can affect the performance.


/Peter

[JEGG]

Hello Ben:
First, thanks for posting the piano clips.

I hope I did not give the impression in any way that those examples were not well recorded. However you feel about them, they were quite revealing about the characters of the mic's, and in those terms, the recordings were extremely useful and-well-good!

I still feel surprised, though, about what can be discerned from such examples when other mic's are in use that I use and/or own.

I thought, as I've already said, that the tenor and baritone range of the piano seemed to be a little out of control, relative to the other mic's in use. Not only in level but in definition.

The caveat in such an opinion, is that each set of mic's really needs to be at their own optimum distance/placement. Of course, that only makes the comparisons more difficult if the listener was not physically present.

Anyway, I do appreciate the examples, and I do appreciate your additional information here.

Subjectivity and use of the microphones is ultimately most important, and my initial negative reactions to the mic doesn't mean much about the quality or usefulness of the mic, and I'm not calling the mic a bad one-rather I don't have the urge to run and try it, or it may not be useful to me. That's not to say that I will never try it. I may have given a mistaken impression about that, and if I did, I'll try to be a bit more circumspect and nuanced the next time.

Thanks again for your information and the recorded examples.

Edit: I like the phrase "in the world of imperfect mic's."

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by d_fu

........edit...........
As for the others, I somehow find the 80x0 uncomfortably small - even my KM 131 are so small. Wouldn't mind a pair of MKH 20, somehow, they feel very solid (yet light) and the diaphragm is well protected.

Yes and yes.


I like the 20's very much. They become even better as the SPL rises and with complex textures. And that little pressure ring is quite useful. I have also used the 20 at right angles-and more and less- (everything depends on the room geometry) to sources with the HF lift engaged, and they have very smooth off axis response, better than the 183's. I do think the KM100 series sounds different and better (than the 180 series), and I like the sound of the 131 very much. (Also, the 20's with the HF lift engaged can sound spectacular for an intentional effect on close complex sources. Used once every two years or so.)

Originally Posted by d_fu

I've never used the 193... What I did use on said shootout was a single 170, which wasn't even mine...
But as has been mentioned above, they are somewhat similar.

They are just a little bit crisper, but not by much. Pardon my brain malfunction.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Audiop

John,

the front plate in MKH8000 series, is it covered with holes so to speak or holes only in the middle?

Reason I ask is that there is some loose stuff, possibly glue or something that shouldn't be there in one of my mics. I wonder if I should worry about it and send them in or not. If I understand (it's hard to see from outside) how the capsule and front plate is build up I think I can draw a conclusion.

I don't know if it's something that has come loose or if it's sloppy assembling. I have had problems with bad QC from Sennheiser before so I'm worried if this can affect the performance.

If there is something loose it sounds like a fault.

If you can see it, take a photo and e-mail it to your local Sennheiser agent, who would be able to advise.

I'm not sure about the holes as I only have the MKH 8040 at the moment and they have extra protection in front of the front plate so you can't see the holes.

[Audiop]

Thanks John!

"Loose" was a bad choice of word from me. It's somehting in there in one of the mics but it does not move, only looks like something that shouldn't be there. It's at the rim and covering a little piece of the frontplate. Possibly it's glue that is applied between the capsule and tube when assembling the mics.

The Swedish Sennheiser rep. thought I should send it back to the dealer (other country) but if I do that I will get the mic in return and have to pay the cost for shipping if there's nothing wrong with the mics according to that countrys Sennheiser rep. There was some damage to the box when I got it but that is likely from package squeezed together during freight and not a shock so probably it's not really damaged.

I'll try to get in contact with Sennheiser Germany.

Thanks again for chiming in!


/Peter

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Thanks John!

"Loose" was a bad choice of word from me. It's somehting in there in one of the mics but it does not move, only looks like something that shouldn't be there. It's at the rim and covering a little piece of the frontplate. Possibly it's glue that is applied between the capsule and tube when assembling the mics.

The Swedish Sennheiser rep. thought I should send it back to the dealer (other country) but if I do that I will get the mic in return and have to pay the cost for shipping if there's nothing wrong with the mics according to that countrys Sennheiser rep. There was some damage to the box when I got it but that is likely from package squeezed together during freight and not a shock so probably it's not really damaged.

I'll try to get in contact with Sennheiser Germany.

Don't get in touch with Sennheiser Germany direct, they automatically refer e-mails back to the agent in the country you are in.

I would suggest taking a digital close-up photo of it and e-mailing it to your local Sennheiser agent and ask them to forward it to the factory. The designer, hopefully, should be able to tell you if it needs to be returned or not.

Or you can put it on a website and PM me the link and I'll send it on. I know the designers quite well.

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by Audiop

I have had problems with bad QC from Sennhesier before so I'm worried if this can affect the performance.

Out of curiosity, would you mind telling us about that?

[Audiop]

Buzzing sound on some frequencies in HD600 (new). Good service, I drove in to town and they swapped the problematic cup to a new one while I waited. There was a copper strand sticking out from the voicecoil rubbing against the membrane or chassi.


/Peter

[666666]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Buzzing sound on some frequencies in HD600 (new)...

I had the same problem with a brand new HD600... faint occasional "buzzing" at certain lower frequencies... haven't had it checked out yet, they work fine 90% of the time.... I have two other sets of HD600s that are perfect though.... great all-purpose cans.

[desotoslo]

any way someone who has the WAVs would upload them and provide a link? I'd really like to hear this comparison. Thanks!

[DeafDave]

Any chance of a repost of the files - both links to the mp3 and the wavs have been deleted - I would still like a listen if possible?

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by DeafDave

Any chance of a repost of the files - both links to the mp3 and the wavs have been deleted - I would still like a listen if possible?

heres one of mine...btw

MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service

[didier.brest]

Thank you! I'm also interestesd in this test and will listen to it on this evening.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

Thank you! I'm also interestesd in this test and will listen to it on this evening.

dont know if you were addressing me...but my comp was 7 HQ omni microphones.

7 Omni Mic comparison(piano)

[didier.brest]

Sorry, I misread your post. I thought that you had kept the files from the OP and have uploaded them again.
I already listened to your own test. (Great TLM 50 !)