alanis at radio city: hang the soundman!

[u b k]

well, it was a kickass show, even better than i expected. i love radio city music hall, what an amazing venue.

alanis rocks, old school. well, 90's old school, but hey, this is 2008 after all. she gives over, and her pitch is remarkable. the backline kicked ass too, lots of running around and putting on a proper show like proper rock stars.

but the friggin' sound, what the hell is up with sound at concerts these days? nobody mixes the midrange, it was all 40hz tub and 8k shred with total hash and zero clarity at 2k. and the guy left no headroom for her voice, you couldn't hear 80% of the words she was singing, her lower range disappered into the blur, and i couldn't hear the guitars. the drums sounded like plastic toys, zero body. bass notes were indistinct, and transients on the overall mix... what are transients again?

on the plus side, the volume was maybe 90-92db, which meant i felt safe not wearing plugs for the 90 minute show. the crowd screaming was louder than the arrays. that's a trend i could stand more of.

that's my rant. the crowd was phenomenal, what an energy. i had a great time, because everyone was having a great time, and the alternative would be to have a suck time and where's the payoff in that?

in all, i give it 4 stars for show and zero stars for sound.


gregoire
del
ubk
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[astronmr20]

I have noticed this a lot, too. Even at larger guitar-drenched rock shows. Scooped out like crazy.

Granted, at the last one I went to, it seemed perhaps the engineer was making room for the voice...

[tsvisser]

I've always been pleased at Roseland. I wonder if it something about the SR installations at each place that forces the engineers at each place to work around some deficiency of the system - like RC having some ridiculous amount of feedback breeding fills or something. Both locales are union run?

[nickynicknick]

I haven't mixed at radio city, but I have mixed in many theatres. If you were sitting under the balcony, you will get a severly skewed audio picture...other than that though, usually soft seaters end up sounding pretty good. I've always hated the fact that (as you say) a lot of live mixes have no midrange. I like to mix guitars and vocals agressively...however there are a ton of elements and variables in any room....and it's always a battle to overcome these things...your personal vision of how things should be is usually secondary and you end up having to figure out "how do I beat this room?"...sometimes that ends up meaning compromising the guitars so the vocals can sit properly....sometimes it means sacrificing the drums..I hate this and most of the time you can get around this by actually "mixing" your band. By that I mean riding vocals, riding guitars and featuring riffs or elements that should be featured in the moment. For me, this is what separates the men from the boys. But really sometimes you just plain get beat by the situation. I do agree that there is way to much sub going on at concerts these days. I don't think that a ton of sub is as effective as an exciting mix with midrange...and no you can't really have both...i think you can have enough sub and an exciting mix... that is something I'm constanty thinking about...sometimes it's how little sub can I get away with...

Nick

[Mr.HOLMES]

UBK.
Nice words and thats what I think about a lot of live shows.
I remember that I saw Jeff Healey in 98 the sound was awful exactly like you wrote no heardroom for the voice etc....much base....no mids.

But overall I think normally times have changed?

Pat Metheney in 1995 in Luxembourg had a sound near like from CD when the lights went on you could see a lot off little speakers in the whole room they had two mixing engineers there and they where sweating like hell over the whole show during they tweaked their knobs.... Fantastic what live sound.

John Mc Laughlin in the Köln Philarmonie .....the same there have been speakers spread thorough the whole room ....OK the Köln Philharmonie is one of the best rooms for music in the world this helps a lot.

This year Eric Clapton live here in Berlin Waldbühne Open Air...
What a fantastic sound well balanced regardless which seat you had I was walking around in upper seats and had different sweet-spots it never sounded bad.
20.000 humans looking at the old man with his guitar and he still rocks.
People where freaking out.

But you are right bad live sound is a big social-stress and makes me leave tho concert in 99% off all cases. I remember one concert here in Berlin there was so much base mixed in it and the ****ing room was with wood on the floor the whole floor was like a earthquake I had 30 db pad earplugs with me and the base was still hurting in my ear.I wanted my money back and they gave me the money.

[bleen]

My wife and I are going to catch Alanis' show in early November at the Paramount here in Seattle - hopefully they'll have time to find the "sweet" knob on the PA and turn down the "suck". You've pointed out why I don't like listening to live shows these days - too painful and I want to push the FOH guy out of the way. I want to like hearing live shows because they can be a transcendent experience, but lately, sonically they are all sounding like crushed CDs.

[tracktension]

about no headroom for her voice...

when i was in audio school, my live sound teacher said he was on tour as the monitor mixer and said that she just will not sing as loud or as good as she can or should.she fired him after he told her he ''cant turn it up anymore because your mic is up all the way and your gonna have to start actually singing..''

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by tracktension

about no headroom for her voice...

when i was in audio school, my live sound teacher said he was on tour as the monitor mixer and said that she just will not sing as loud or as good as she can or should.she fired him after he told her he ''cant turn it up anymore because your mic is up all the way and your gonna have to start actually singing..''

This is a great story....WOW
Not exactly with the topic but once a friend of mine recorded Anny Lennox.
Regarding to the question which Microphone she prefers she answered:

It will sound good anyway ...I do not care.

Is that cool????

[dbbubba]

Do you want the real truth?
(WOW... That sounds like Jack Nicholson! "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!")

I walk the line between studio and live sound and have for most of my career since the mid '70s.
I have done a lot of high profile gigs and interfaced and worked alongside a lot of big name live mixers.

The mindset of live mixing is almost always torn between the logistics of touring, setting up live rigs and mixing.
Every tour and then every venue is a new game.
Some times the logistics/technical wins the game.

Because of the nature of the business the average mixing skills of live engineers IS NOT as good as a studio mixer's abilities.
The live guys do not walk into a room and start mixing like a studio mixer.
Everything is set up and arranged in most studio mixing scenarios.
You have to start from the beginning in live sound.
If the rig is a house system you have to learn the room AND THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME.

These seem like bold statements and generalizations, but I have been in the situation where "name" live mixers have attempted to mix a band in a remote truck and they failed miserably in almost all situations.
I also have worked with an engineer who was GIANT and pioneer in live audio going back to early '70s with the biggest tours and names in the business.
He was only OK in the studio.

The responsibilities are HUGE in live audio and "perfect audio" is not always attainable.

A lot of great mixers would not consider going on tour.
The itinerary and requirements of a tour narrow the field of mixers considerably.

[PDC]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

Do you want the real truth?
(WOW... That sounds like Jack Nicholson! "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!")

I walk the line between studio and live sound and have for most of my career since the mid '70s.
I have done a lot of high profile gigs and interfaced and worked alongside a lot of big name live mixers.

The mindset of live mixing is almost always torn between the logistics of touring, setting up live rigs and mixing.
Every tour and then every venue is a new game.
Some times the logistics/technical wins the game.

Because of the nature of the business the average mixing skills of live engineers IS NOT as good as a studio mixer's abilities.
The live guys do not walk into a room and start mixing like a studio mixer.
Everything is set up and arranged in most studio mixing scenarios.
You have to start from the beginning in live sound.
If the rig is a house system you have to learn the room AND THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME.

These seem like bold statements and generalizations, but I have been in the situation where "name" live mixers have attempted to mix a band in a remote truck and they failed miserably in almost all situations.
I also have worked with an engineer who was GIANT and pioneer in live audio going back to early '70s with the biggest tours and names in the business.
He was only OK in the studio.

The responsibilities are HUGE in live audio and "perfect audio" is not always attainable.

A lot of great mixers would not consider going on tour.
The itinerary and requirements of a tour narrow the field of mixers considerably.

I am with ya.

But, with the digital desks in use, there is this misconception that the bands can be premixed in a studio or rehearsal haul during tour prepro, and then hit the magic presets and the show is basically done. If a studio and monitor system can drastically change a mix, how much more can a room with RT60s of 3, 4 or 5 and hyper processed active line arrays producing 15 to 20% THD at full bore going to effect things? There is no slack given to the FOH guy. What about the house or rental company's A1? They should share in this as well.

All this is to say that the FOH engineer could be a deaf idiot. But, I have heard and been a part of too many shows that had poor sound as a resultof things out of the control of the mixing engineer.,

[u b k]

i'm with ya db, and am fully aware of the vast differences between live and studio mixing. i suck at the latter, fwiw.

one of my best friends in seattle was an foh guy, and he was amazing. he never stopped moving and tweaking the entire show, always adjusting to fit the song, always riding levels to feature and lowlight.

i can say two things in all confidence: first, radio city is an amazing sounding hall, i have heard shows there that sounded fantastic, big and clear. there are no excuses for anyone is this regard.

second, at this show, the mix was static and exactly the same from song one onwards. i kept waiting for the dreck to clear, for the balances and tones to shift, but they didn't. my guess is the foh guy was in set-and-forget mode, sipping coffee and enjoying the 1000's of lovely ladies in attendance all shimmying and swaying.

my aforementioned friend used to say that live sound is a dance, there is always something that can be made better. if you're not dancing on that console the whole time, you're asleep on the job.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[dbbubba]

Digital console DO allow the thought or idea that things are already set and stored.

There are a lot of factors that influence live sound and a lot of things can't be worked out in the time frame allowed.
The over all level of the monitor rig can influence the sounds A LOT and because of the performers and their comfort IT CAN'T BE ELIMINATED OR TURNED DOWN.
It is part of what the audience hears, but the F.O.H. guy has VERY LITTLE control over it.
In theaters that are not designed for amplified sound the monitor rig is often a GIANT part of what the audience hears.

The days of the stacks and racks (speaker and amps) having 15 to 20% THD are long gone.
I would bet that the mains are about as low in THD as possible with that artist.
Today's rigs have wattage to spare and are rarely driven even to the 80% of available wattage range.
Line arrays and the associated processing have large been one of the biggest improvements in live sound in many, many years.

The main thing to remember is that tour logistiics play a huge factor in what happens.
No matter what any one says... it depends where in the tour you are.
There becomes a point where the crew has a "groove" going and the set up, show and strike are a very efficient system (hopefully.)
There are not many changes tolerated or welcomed, so efficiency and following routine is paramount.
In other words.... it is just one more gig on the itinerary.
It might be "special" to you as an audience member, but the crew and/or artists may be in another frame of mind totally.

Another factor that influences the sound are the requirements and rules specified by the hall.
Is it union?
How does this impact set up and soundcheck time wise.

So, as you can see... it can easily slip into a "good enough" or let's get this one done because we have a hard schedule ahead of us.

This is also why live mixers are a breed unto themselves.
It isn't about being a "great mixer."
It is about getting it done night after night, city after city under VERY trying conditions.
This is why a lot of great mixers won't do the road.
It rarely is great or close to perfect.

It is ALWAYS combat mixing to a certain degree.

As far as the scooped sound.
Live guys always want the low end (subs) way louder than a balanced studio playback/monitor rig would have.
It adds to the excitement level I guess.
I personally fight this all the time where the system techs ask me why I am not cranking the subs.
A lot of live stuff is done BECAUSE YOU CAN.

[jchadstopherhuez]

i have some buddies that are live sound guys for big touring acts. i know its a tough gig.

there are some great mixers out there...

i saw p.jam at the garden a few years back. the sound was WAY better than i could have imagined....as it usually is with that band.

i think bret eliason is the guy that mixes them....always great.

the last time i saw goo goo dolls at a big theatre...the sound was amazing...then i found out that paul david hager was mixing them...and it made sense !! (paul is an amazing producer/mixer in the studio as well !!)

hands down the best sound i have ever experienced in a live setting has been EVERY time i have seen jonatha brooke play. her live sound is simply amazing. i've seen her in small rooms, theatres (like the pabst in milwaukee) and outdoor shows...the mix is ALWAYS just phenomenal.

kudos to whoever does her live stuff !!!

last night i saw the english band james at a new venue in milwaukee. HUGE room...BIG room sound....i felt for the guy running the board. up by the stage...vocals, trumpet and violin were non-existant. my wife commented on how bad the sound was compared to the last time she saw them (she had just seen james in england at shepherds bush empire) we noticed the foh guy running back and forth from various spots in the room to his desk...making adjustments nearly the entire night.

we walked back 20 ft from the stage to the spot where he seemed to have been when he actually smiled !!.....and the mix was PERFECT....like a record.....

we made sure to stop by the FOH on the way out to compliment the VERY hard working mixer !!

the variables in live sound are just too numerous. kudos to the folks that pull off a consistently great sounding mix...in less than consistent environments !!

i agree on the garden...only been there 4 times...but every show has sounded fantastic ! bummer on the alanis gig, ubk.....the last time i saw her with chris chaney on bass and gary novak on drums (i think nick lashley on gtrs ?)...it was an AMAZING show.

maybe next time...

cheers,

jchristopherhughes

[bcgood]

Excuses, excuses.

[u b k]

Originally Posted by bcgood

Excuses, excuses.

agreed. bottom line: there's no excuse for not working on the mix as the show evolves. fighting bad sound and losing the battle is one thing; accepting bad sound and doing nothing about it is quite another.

fuuck that.


gregoire
del
ubk
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[peeder]

I'm friends with a couple of the best FOH guys in the world.

I can tell you that they suffer the problems of "pleasing the customer" more than anyone.

One just got back from tour with a name everyone has heard of. The artist is basically deaf at this point, insists on there being no low end at all, a 12db high shelf boost at 3KHz, and a 15 second reverb on everything.

Yes this artist is a guy who is absolutely world famous.

And his FOH mixer couldn't do anything about it. He comes to the desk with a mic and checks that it's just the way he wants it. The FOH guy would be replaced in seconds if he even complained.

This is the way it is. And I'm very happy I no longer do any live music.

[toxostoma rufum]

That's awful peeder...
Annie Lennox's attitude is right...focus on your craft, and everybody else will be doing their job correctly to support you.

[lazzaro]

Originally Posted by toxostoma rufum

Annie Lennox's attitude is right...focus on your craft, and everybody else will be doing their job correctly to support you.

Considered in isolation, putting out a good mix of a live show
on a given night is hard, but ... concerts are a multimedia experience.
Good stage presence and visuals can fool an audience into hearing
a better mix than is really coming through the air.

Also, the audience is highly motivated to leave happy. As I recall
(don't quote me on this), the median number of shows per year
of an audience member today is around one (!) -- so, that night was the
only night out to hear live music for most audience members (for 2008).
And naturally, they will want to remember it as a good night and
as money well spent ... the show has to be really bad to overcome
that bias.

[PDC]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

Digital console DO allow the thought or idea that things are already set and stored.

Right. What you said after that is what I was getting at. There are more variables than the mix itself. It is not always something that can be fixed at FOH. There can be structure load and site line issues that impede ideal hangs, etc. Sometimes stage volume and backline overpowers FOH. There are loads of factors all day. Sometimes it is in the artist's (or artist's wife/management's/etc) heads.

When EAW KF 850s were all the rage, I was mixing FOH for a well known country band. The tech rider called for no TAD compression drivers, because they had a crappy road history and were too expensive to replace. It also called for REAL 850s with REAL flyware and bumpers. There were a number of SR companies providing homemade 850s, loaded with drivers that were not EVEN close, etc. One company in Tulsa had 850s loaded with Peavey drivers (this was 1995). So, I am out there with the factory processors about to pull my hair out. These things were terrible. The sound was not happening. There was no array mojo happening. I don't miss those days at all.

[ckreon]

Originally Posted by peeder

I'm friends with a couple of the best FOH guys in the world.

I can tell you that they suffer the problems of "pleasing the customer" more than anyone.

One just got back from tour with a name everyone has heard of. The artist is basically deaf at this point, insists on there being no low end at all, a 12db high shelf boost at 3KHz, and a 15 second reverb on everything.

Yes this artist is a guy who is absolutely world famous.

And his FOH mixer couldn't do anything about it. He comes to the desk with a mic and checks that it's just the way he wants it. The FOH guy would be replaced in seconds if he even complained.

This is the way it is. And I'm very happy I no longer do any live music.

van halen anyone?

[rectifried]

i was at that show...the sound was pretty empty..
I was 3rd row to the stage I thought, if they didnt have in ears, the monitors might have filled it in a bit.
good band, fellow LA musician friends ...hence the ticket

[plexisys]

Radio City is one of the best venues to mix in the US.

My guess is the FOH guy was suffering from audio fatigue. It's real easy to fall in to the scenario that you know the songs so well that you "think" you can hear the vocals clearly because you know them from hearing them every night. This is very common and something you have to learn to fight after the first couple of weeks on the road. I've seen this affect the best mixers out there.

Digital console DO allow the thought or idea that things are already set and stored.

Doesn't matter if it's digital or analog. It's normal to start with the previous nights settings and then retune for the room.

Some of the issue is the band. I can't count how many times I've seen the band just turn their gear on and not change a setting on their amps. They are under the disbelief that their equipment is set and forget. They make little or no changes to their rigs regardless of the venue they are in. Simple concept they can not grasp: room changes/sound changes.

[rsolinski]

I've been in the biz for years and the trend that began 10 years ago or so is disturbing. I haven't "heard" a bass at a live show in at least 10 years..I have "felt" them....Just because you can make prodigious amounts of 40 hz doesn't mean you should. Too much reliance on analyzers....I know monitors effect the foh but what is the excuse for the bands that are all in ear?Seems to me like there are too many "boom car" kids running foh...Last good show I heard was Steely in '96 although Lovett and Lang was decent in 2007. The company running foh for the Counting Crows/M5 tour this year should be canned...particularly after Adam made a big deal about live music and musicians playing...that's nice..If I could have heard anything over the thump tutt

Ray

[dbbubba]

Artist requirements can be a great problem.

I have a good friend who was an "understudy" to the guy who I mentioned that mixed the biggest of the big for years.
He pretty well passed the "baton" to my good friend.
I became friends with the guy just as he decided to quit the live mixing biz after quite a few years and concentrate on his studio (a fantastic vintage Neve room.)

This guy had just finished being the F.O.H. mixer for three HUGE artists.
One was named J.E. and he absolutely HAD TO HAVE a ridiculously large amounts of reverb on his vocals. It ruined the mix. Every time you hear him the reverb is insane.
Another named K.G. did not care about spending ANY money to improve his sound.
It was all, 100% about the bottom line.
There was a VERY small budget and sound suffered.
Another named B.R. had parents who were entertainment giants in their own right.
When her mother showed up at ANY show she sat front row center.
Mom could show up at any time and if the sound was not perfect where SHE was sitting there was hell to pay.... it could end your gig.
When "mom" was present, most of the focus was on tailoring the system to sound best at front row center.
These were arena sized venues, yet a pair of very specific front fills were fussed over at great lengths and the rest of the hall got whatever was the result of that.

I myself used to mix F.O.H. for a country legend.
We did moderate sized venues and always had quality systems.
Still, what this man wanted to hear absolutely did not translate into the physical world.
He would explain at great length at how he wanted the entire system to sound in the room from where he stood at center stage.
It is hard to explain now, but it was a request that was VERY difficult to provide.
At the very least (if it was even possible to achieve) the audience suffered.
The mix out front was not as good as it could have been.
BUT..... While on the bus and deep in conversations about what he desired and expected to hear I realized that THIS MAN HAD BEEN SINGING INTO A MICROPHONE ON A STAGE LONGER THAN I HAD BEEN ALIVE!
While his views were not up-to-date and were largely flying in the face of the physical world we live in I really couldn't argue with him.
I acquiesced and a s consequence the sound out front wasn't ever what it could have been.

[studjo]

man I'm happy I don't do FOH for those guys - I do quite a bit of live sound again and when an arist approaches me he wants my ears to do the sound so I decide what's going to happen and what's not - otherwise I'm out. I worked with some "name" guys and they allways have some special wishes but I don't argue I do what they want me to do during soundcheck and as soon as the gig starts it's my show - I do whatever it takes to make it sound good IMVHO - no matter if the artist wants 5 seconds of reverb on his vocals nor not. Not one single complaint (fingers crossed). One thing I really learned doing live stuff: don't argue - get the job done and make it amazingly good and fast.

Jo

[Bassmankr]

I've ranted about this same thing in other posts. Live guys if you are short on time there is no excuse for not getting the sound dialed in by the fourth song so anything else is just an excuse for lack of chops. The biggest problem is the Live guys dial in a "concert sound" kick drum ahead of everything else. I come to a concert to hear ALL the musicians on stage and frankly if the kick drum mic went out and could not be fixed for an entire show it should not matter. With a concert sound kick drum you steal most of the sound real estate from the Bass player and they basically become redundant on stage as you certainly can not hear clearly what they are playing. The concert sound kick drum also steals from vocal intellability, it sure would be nice if I could hear all the lyrics folks. Lastly, if there is no dynamic range where soft is actually soft then you kill the emotion of the music and set.

[XJR]

I'm quite often disappointed by the sound at most big gigs. In over 20 years of gigs I've only ever seen two bands, Pink Floyd and It Bites, who both had a real hi fi quality mix .... with Floyd managing that in Wembly Stadium. The last bad one was Greenday in London, distorted and harsh as hell

There is a huge difference in studio sound and live sound. If you know the desk really well then that's an advantage. If you don't then just seeing the EQ legends can be hard at night, and most digital desk's are a nightmare to see in day time open air gigs. A lot of normal studio tricks like heavy compression to even the vocals don't work live, as that compresses all the drum and instrument bleed in the lead vocal mic. So you try and sort everything else out while riding the vox faders.
Some guys are great in as much as they can not only get a really good compromise, but also do it really quickly. The sound changes dramactially between soundchecking in an empty venue and what it sounds like filled with people, especially in Winter when most punters will be wearing coats.

[Vinrockindie]

Why can't we just use automation?!

Oh. It's live.

[bcgood]

I've seen many concerts that sounded awesome. If these bands are somehow magically able to sound good live it shows that great live sound is possible. It's simply a combination of knowing what you're doing, (Including knowing how to listen properly) communicating with the band, making sure you have the proper equipment and working your ass off during the show. Steely Dan, Dave Mathew's Band, Depeche Mode, U2, Pink Floyd, The Cure - these bands don't sound awesome in concert by accident. It takes a lot of hard work and skill to make it happen.

[Vinrockindie]

You're absolutely right about that. I had the pleasure of watching Joe O'Herlihy work and it was a sight to see.