Nagra VI Firmware Requests

[tsvisser]

NAGRA VI FIRMWARE REQUESTS / BUG REPORTS

1) tsvisser: I experienced some problems uploading the firmware file. Clicking on the link opened up a browser window that showed the contents of the file as a plain text document. I then command-clicked or "right clicked" the link and downloaded / saved the file directly. The root of the issues is that my Mac OS 10.4 MacBook Pro, using Safari, downloaded the file as a .txt plain text file rather than a .nbu file extension. The exact file name was NVI_0100_120.nbu.txt. If I clicked on the file and changed the extension, it hid the .txt extension from me, but did not actually change the extension. I had to press command-I, or the show info shortcut, and remote the .txt extension from that pane before the file actually changed to a .nbu type file. Once I figured this out, there was no issue in uploading the firmware to the machine, following the instructions provided. I do not know if this is something that Nagra's web developer needs to address or if it is an incident isolated to my machine. SOLVED ON THE WEBSITE

2) tsvisser: I'm not sure how other people will use the preset recall and store feature, but it seems to me that the way that I would intend to use it is to recall my most commonly utilized microphone setups. Assuming that other people feel the same way - The problem: When you recall a preset, it recalls EVERY settable option in the settings. This includes things such as sample rate, file type, monitoring level boost, line output level, etc... I personally can't find a good reason why the monitoring level boost would need to be preset / recalled. Most people would match it to the sensitivity of their headphones, preferred listening levels, and then forget... so true, you could just go through every preset, set / modify the desired level, and move on. Other options, however, such as sampling rate, would actually need to be changed fairly often. If I'm doing a music remote, I'd likely set to 24bit/44.1KHz. If I'm working on a TV or film shoot, 24bit/48KHz. A critical "direct to disc" recording might be done at 24bit/96KHz. I would rather not have recalling a preset change items such as sampling rate, and then have to go back into the settings menu to change back all the items that I did not want to change. One more example might be working with a post production team who does not want polyphonic files. In this one case, you switch your machine to mono BWFs, but then at some point you recall a preset and it changes it back to polyphonic. You then face the minor, but irritating task of converting all your polys to mono before submitting the stems. Suggestions: The easy solution would be to simply remove the monitoring level setting as a presettable option or just make people deal with the concept of 100% global parameter presets. I could live with that, but it makes the concept of presets a bit less ideal for me, as I'd probably need a lot more presets to describe every commonly used layout. I'm also a bit of a software developer myself, and realize that if you make a change to make 1 person happy, it will probably make 2 others unhappy. As complicated as it might be, I would suggest at least the possibility of considering a more advanced preset option, which should make everyone happy.
Each preset setting could have an additional parameter that could be defined in addition to the adjusted values...
T - True or Take, the current setting will be recalled to the defined parameter
D - Default, the current setting will be recalled to a default parameter - such as to zero a machine out (the 0 preset)
X - Null, the current setting will not be affected during a recall
I find myself using the presets to an extent, but then having to go through most of of the parameters manually, just as a confidence check. This is partly due to my emerging familiarity with the machine and having set some presets before fully understanding how they worked or thinking through all the implications. Ultimately, the advantage of this scheme is to make things simpler in the long run, even though it requires a bit of complexity in the setup. I could have a preset that only changes mic/line configurations, along with sensitivity, filter, phantom, phase, and mix down. I could have a second preset that just changes monitoring options, leaving mic configuration untouched. MOSTLY SOLVED IN FIRMWARE WITH THE OPTION TO STORE PRESETS ON CF. YOU CAN MAKE YOUR PRESETS AND THEN MODIFY THEM FOR DIFFERENT SCENARIOS. MY ISSUE WAS THAT TV WORK WAS DIFFERENT FROM FILM WORK, WHCI IS DIFFERENT THAN MUSIC REMOTES, SO THIS ABILITY MORE OR LESS SOLVES THE ISSUE, JUST REQUIRES A LITTLE BIT OF PRESET / FILE MANAGEMENT

3) John Willett: The one upgrade I suggested to Nagra in my review was that in playback mode all the recording options are gone and there is a blank area below the modulometers. I suggested that in playback mode the display should revert to "cinema" mode as standard to show full-length modulometers.

4) tsvisser: The potentiometers, if you have them assigned to mic preamp gain... if you turn them all the way counterclockwise, it turns off the channel. I would rather have it so that they simply bottom out to their minimum gain level when turned all the way, as shutting off the channel could have bad consequences. SOLVED IN FIRMWARE - 1/3 point is 0 gain, below 1/3 is now a digital attenuator

5) tsvisser: I'd like to see the MIDI port become active. It would be nice if it could send out MTC time code, so when hooking up to a protools system, one could read time code in real time without using an LTC to MTC translator, such as the Digi Sync I/O, MOTU Timepiece, etc... I'd also like to see an MTC reader and it would be awesome if the VI would respond to MTC as a locator, would be pretty useful for using the VI in playback situations.

6) tsvisser: For tone output levels, I'd like to be able to output full scale tone at 0dBFs (or if not technically feasible, something close, such as -1dB or -2dB). I was working with a RED camera the other day that had the old audio board. In addition, it had some faulty and partially faulty inputs on the board. It would have been nice to double check full scale tone as my typical -20dBFs tone wasn't consistent across the inputs. Right now it offers levels from -20dBFs to -6dBFs in 2 dB increments.

7) tsvisser: On the Pot. assignment menu, I'd like to have channels 5 and 6 added to the matrix. Even though there are only 4 input potentiometers, it would be nice to have control over more channels, especially if you were doing stereo pair(s) where a single pot would typically be assigned to the pair. SOLVED IN FIRMWARE 2.0
I would also like "pan" added as an option to the "Type" parameter.

8) tsvisser: It would be fantastic if there were 3 different selectable playback behaviors...
a) playback is as it is now, track ends, playback continues to the next track
b) playback stops when the track ends SOLVED IN FIRMWARE 2.0
c) when the end of file is reached, playback "continues" and TC clock continues to run in free-run mode
I am now in the midst of a playback job where once I accidentally played the wrong song due to the unit incrementing to the next song before I put the unit in stop (had the faders down to zero, so didn't hear it) and on scenes where there is not enough pre-roll on the tracks, we have to tail slate. Sometimes there is not enough time from when the director "cuts" for the DIT to get in there with the wireless TC slate, so having free-run TC after the tack actually ends would be really handy for these situations.

9) tsvisser: Need control surface support for the mixer. Either USB or MIDI / HUI support for using a future Nagra accessory panel (please!?!!) or 3rd party MIDI capable control surface or software...

10) tsvisser: would like the Nagra to write a stereo mix to the hard drives as channels 7 and 8 as an option SOLVED IN FIRMWARE 3.0 (and be able to rotate this mix track to 1/2 on the poly BWF for post compatibility), leaving channels 1 to 6 for ISO recordings. Would really need request #9, the mix facility, implemented to make this feature useable.

11) fasma: add direct output functionality to the unit. 4 TA3 connectors, add DB-9 extension port, convert existing DB-9 into a DB-25? UPDATE: I spoke with some people at Nagra and it was determined that the design of the Nagra did not ideally allow for this functionality and not recommended. Even though I would like this feature, I would tend to concur with their conclusion.

12) tsvisser: inspired by a thread from another professional sound forum, I would love to see Zaxcom "Zaxnet" style metadata added so that scene and take information could be added to the new Zaxcom ERX series of IFB receivers. This feature would have so much more to do with Zaxcom allowing this and promulgating some sort of industrywide standard, more so than Nagra being able to take the initiative here.

13) John Willett: link the limiter for 2+3 as well as 1+2 and 3+4 - so if you link them all you can have 4 microphones together.

14) meitemi: Possible hardware, possible firmware request, to fix USB HDD driver and / or power supply issue with external HDD, confirmed issue with some drives that will not mount due to some issue. (specifically Western Digital My Passport in this case)

15) philiper: Add an option for "split poly" with a stereo poly mix pair and isos or a poly for the rest? tsvisser: to expand on this, option to put the mono/stereo mix into a separate folder or subfolder too.

16) tsvisser: Add mic/line gain adjustment shortcut. If a channel is solo'd, then the channel's gain is indicated on the LCD and using the cursor keys will allow one to adjust gain. The reason Im suggesting this is so that I can set the pots to fader trims without loosing the ability to adjust gains on the fly. **edit** as it was pointed out to me, the monitoring enable / solo buttons are likely not tied to software and are simply hardware switches, so probably can't function like I mentioned. In addition to the left + right "Temporarily return all pots to their analogue input and headphones for the monitoring pot." function, for this to be truly useable, there should be added a "fader locate" function. Post #176

17) boomed: Add delay compensation to the AES digital inputs to compensate for delta from external A/D converters.

[John Willett]

If anyone is interested - my review of the Nagra VI is now on-line HERE.

There is also another review HERE.

The one upgrade I suggested to Nagra in my review was that in playback mode all the recording options are gone and there is a blank area below the modulometers. I suggested that in playback mode the display should revert to "cinema" mode as standard to show full-length modulometers.

My headphones level question has already been done.

[tsvisser]

The potentiometers, if you have them assigned to mic preamp gain... if you turn them all the way counterclockwise, it turns off the channel. I would rather have it so that they simply bottom out to their minimum gain level when turned all the way, as shutting off the channel could have bad consequences.

Recording is solid, playback is solid. Its a moneymaker!

[John Willett]

Please note that v1.3 is now available from the Nagra website and I understand that there is likely to be one or two more coming before the end of the year.

[Gaston69]

Dear John,

I am trying out a Nagra VI and recorded last Friday a chamber orchestra with classical guitar which I recorded on a separate track ( 3tr. in total) however I was not aware of polyphonic file recording, can I separate this file into 3 mono files?

By the way, you are right it's a lovely machine

Gaston

[tsvisser]

If you don't mind me answering John... I when I have needed to convert in the past, Sound Devices Wave Agent does the trick...

Wave Agent | Sound Devices, LLC

[John Willett]

I have not needed to do the conversion - but, as tsvisser said, Wave Agent is good for this.

I have set my Nagra VI to record mono files rather than poly ones.


By the way - software v1.4 was released just before Christmas and v1.41 went up on the Nagra site very recently - if anyone has not done the upgrades yet.

[phil.]

From the NVI Manual Version 1.4:

Output mixing

The NAGRA VI offers the possibility to mix all 6 audio tracks using the internal mixer during record and playback. The resulting mix is fed to the audio outputs for recording onto another two channel device.

this machine is just getting better and better. thumbsup

Phil.

[tsvisser]

They also addressed my 3rd post in this thread... original firmware had counterclockwise / zero position as minimum gain for the mic preamps. Later firmware changed it so that zero position muted the channel. I had some complaints with this arrangement, as it would then be possible to accidentally mute a channel if you were riding gains. The new arrangement allows the minimum gain setting to be at the 1/3rd position and from there down, it is digital attenuation to allow fadeouts. I like this arrangement a lot and the sensitivity is still very good... no noticeable decreased resolution in the gain potentiometer.

Things I've heard the might be coming... USB keyboard support, external control surface implementation, SSD support (if it isn't already supported, but at least not thoroughly tested). I've made some suggestions of my own, but I'll bite my tongue and just wait and see what comes next.

[Gaston69]

John & TS Visser,

I downloaded Wave Agent which worked fine and have now monophonic files however Nagra has created new files however because I was exceeding the file limit size (see below), now my question how do I glue these files back together?

Regards,

Gaston


Polyphonic file recordings

Each time a recording is made a single “.wav” file will be created, and will include all the tracks
previously selected. This method of recording tends to be used in music recording applications and
generally when only a two track or “stereo” file is to be produced. The Nagra VI will create a
new file as soon as any file size reaches 2GB and when recording a polyphonic format, this will
occur every 19 minutes at 96 kHz 24 bit 6 track. It should be noted that certain audio post
production playback systems cannot handle polyphonic audio files. When copying polyphonic files
between drives on the Nagra VI all the tracks of a polyphonic file will be copied.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Gaston69

Nagra has created new files however because I was exceeding the file limit size (see below), now my question how do I glue these files back together?

Easy - just but them together in an editing program and they play perfectly.

I found this when I did the original review of the Nagra VI.

I use Sequoia and just imported the files and butted them up together (IE: no cross-fade) - they played perfectly as if they were one file.

[iluvatar]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I have not needed to do the conversion - but, as tsvisser said, Wave Agent is good for this.

I have set my Nagra VI to record mono files rather than poly ones.


By the way - software v1.4 was released just before Christmas and v1.41 went up on the Nagra site very recently - if anyone has not done the upgrades yet.

Pro Tools will do it, too. I actually prefer to set my R-4 Pro to record a single 4-ch wav file rather than 4 separate tracks. I just import the one file into PT, it creates one 4-ch track, then I create 4 mono tracks (or 2 stereo or whatever I need), and drag the original region(s) onto those new tracks and mix/edit/export as needed.

-Dan.

[tsvisser]

I'd like to see the MIDI port become active. It would be nice if it could send out MTC time code, so when hooking up to a protools system, one could read time code in real time without using an LTC to MTC translator, such as the Digi Sync I/O, MOTU Timepiece, etc... I'd also like to see an MTC reader and it would be awesome if the VI would respond to MTC as a locator, would be pretty useful for using the VI in playback situations.

[Larry Elliott]

Question from a new user.

Is there somewhere that you can register for notifications of new updates or is it necessary to regularly check the website.
Thanks
Larry

[tsvisser]

Originally Posted by Larry Elliott

Question from a new user.

Is there somewhere that you can register for notifications of new updates or is it necessary to regularly check the website.
Thanks
Larry

I think you have to check the website. If you subscribe to this thread, I'll try to actively post whenever a new firmware release is issued and I'm usually checking relatively often.

I have another request... for tone output levels, I'd like to be able to output full scale tone at 0dBFs. I was working with a RED camera the other day that had the old audio board. In addition, it had some faulty and partially faulty inputs on the board. It would have been nice to double check full scale tone as my typical -20dBFs tone wasn't consistent across the inputs. Right now it offers levels from -20dBFs to -6dBFs in 2 dB increments.

[tsvisser]

On the Pot. assignment menu, I'd like to have channels 5 and 6 added to the matrix. Even though there are only 4 input potentiometers, it would be nice to have control over more channels, especially if you were doing stereo pair(s) where a single pot would typically be assigned to the pair. I would also like "pan" added as an option to the "Type" paremeter.

I'm now editing the first post in the thread that has a summary of all the requests to date and to keep track of future requests.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by tsvisser

On the Pot. assignment menu, I'd like to have channels 5 and 6 added to the matrix. Even though there are only 4 input potentiometers, it would be nice to have control over more channels, especially if you were doing stereo pair(s) where a single pot would typically be assigned to the pair.

I have just communicated this request to Nagra who say it should be possible in a future update.

See - they listen.

[tsvisser]

Hey, checking the Nagra site today revealed firmware version 1.5

the features...

Activation of the HOST USB port allowing connection of a generic external USB storage device (USB key, external HDD, DVD-RAM
burner) as well as the connection of a USB keyboard. QWERTY, AZERTY and QWERTZ are all accepted.
IMPORTANT NOTE: On machines delivered before March 2009 a modification MUST be applied to the USB host port before it is
active. The modification is explained on the technical information sheet TIE 32-02. Non-implementation of
this modification will not affect the operation of the software version V 1.5, simply the USB host port will not
operate.
• Removal of the word “REC” from the recording format on the default display screen. The time code frame rate has been moved to the
same line as the USER BITS display, to make the display easier to read.
• Correction of a bug in the pre-record function to limit the buffer length of 10 seconds when at 88.2 or 96 kHz.
• Implementation of the US date format. On the Time and Date menu the US format of MM:DD:YY can be selected and will henceforth show
all directory entries in the US format.
• When the internal hard disk is formatted the name NAGRA_VI will be saved as the default volume label. This allows for easy recognition of
the internal hard drive and the compact flash slot when connected to a computer via USB.
• The size of the disk is no longer displayed in the “Folder” screen, because when connected to USB it can indicate incorrectly as it is not
refreshed.
• The project name has been added to the information in the directory display.
• “Copy Destination Full” message introduced to the error messages of the copy manager in place of the message “copy error” displayed
previously.
• Correction of the refreshing of the metadata display during record when modified in the directory display.
• Introduction of the “Media speed test” mode in the tools menu allowing external media devices to be tested for their read and write speed
prior to implementation for recording.
• Improvement in the disk driver software by separating the “cache” of each disk.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by tsvisser

Hey, checking the Nagra site today revealed firmware version 1.5

Great! I was expecting this - but it wasn't there yesterday when I looked, so you got it hot off the press.

Originally Posted by tsvisser

.....IMPORTANT NOTE: On machines delivered before March 2009 a modification MUST be applied to the USB host port before it is active. The modification is explained on the technical information sheet TIE 32-02. Non-implementation of this modification will not affect the operation of the software version V 1.5, simply the USB host port will not operate.

Have you had your machine modified yet?

Luckily I had mine modified a week or two ago in anticipation.

[bardo]

A small bug to report on the software. I upgraded to the V1.4 software last week and thereafter wasn't able to use the front panel to play, forward or rewind existing tracks made using the earlier software. Instead I had to access the directory and use the play and stop button to audition tracks. It seems to suggest that 1.4 doesn't inherit all the software information.

I have just made some new recordings and the front panel controls are working fine and provide control over all new tracks, but still not the old ones.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by bardo

A small bug to report on the software. I upgraded to the V1.4 software last week and thereafter wasn't able to use the front panel to play, forward or rewind existing tracks made using the earlier software. Instead I had to access the directory and use the play and stop button to audition tracks. It seems to suggest that 1.4 doesn't inherit all the software information.

I have just made some new recordings and the front panel controls are working fine and provide control over all new tracks, but still not the old ones.

There were bugs in software version 1.40 - hence the versions 1.41 and 1.42 - 1.42 was fine on my machine.

I have just downloaded 1.50 and will upgrade the Nagra VI tonight.

[John Willett]

All updated to 1.5 now.

But the flashing "H" threw me a bit.

It's the Hard drive access - and flashes "C" for CF cards and "U" for the USB drive - but Nagra forgot to put this in the manual.

I only found out when I queried a problem.

The Nagra VI really *does* get better every day.

[tsvisser]

anyone with firmware 1.5 and a working USB keyboard, can you confirm that an new Apple USB keyboard does not work? I just finished soldering the resistors onto the board and the only keyboard I have on hand right this moment is the Apple one... and no dice. Hoping it is simply an incompatibility with this particular keyboard and not something that I messed up.

[tsvisser]

Originally Posted by tsvisser

anyone with firmware 1.5 and a working USB keyboard, can you confirm that an new Apple USB keyboard does not work? I just finished soldering the resistors onto the board and the only keyboard I have on hand right this moment is the Apple one... and no dice. Hoping it is simply an incompatibility with this particular keyboard and not something that I messed up.

I received word back from Nagra, because the Apple keyboards are actually USB hubs, in addition to a keyboard device, the Nagra does not recognize it because it sees it as a hub. I like the thin profile of the new smaller Apple keyboard, but then it does lack some of the keys used by the Nagra. Anyone have recommendations for sturdy small portable keyboards? Since it is only for metadata input, not significant amount of typing, ergonomics are not as important as is durability and a good form factor that is small enough to fit into the accessory pouch of the VI's case.

[Larry Elliott]

I have a Virtually Indestructible Keyboard from Grandtec.com. I haven’t tried it with my Nagra VI yet - I have yet to do the modification. This keyboard is soft pliable material that can be rolled up. Its certainly not an ergonomic unit, but for what we need in this instance should work well.

Best wishes

Larry

[Larry Elliott]

Have now tested this keyboard and it works fine.

Grandtec USA - Glow Type Virtually Indestructable Keyboard

Regards

Larry

[tsvisser]

Firmware v1.51 was posted. There were no accompanying application notes, so do not know what it addresses.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by tsvisser

Firmware v1.51 was posted. There were no accompanying application notes, so do not know what it addresses.

Thanks for that.

I guess it was just a bug-fix of something we didn't notice.

I am seeing John Owens on Wednesday as he is coming to the UK to do an AMPS / IBS (Association of Motion Picture Sound / Institute of Broadcast Sound) meeting on the Nagra VI - so I'll ask him then.

I'm just getting a flight case made for my Nagra VI - cleverly constructed so I can carry it battery attached or battery separate (I get fed up of losing the clock time when I remove the battery - so I will leave it on if I will use it again in a couple of weeks or take it off if it's stored for a few weeks). I'll try and post a picture when it's done.

[tsvisser]

I was one of those who did the soldering job himself. its probably not pretty from a PCB tech's perspective, but I thought I did an ok job. I was not getting KB or USB drive support yet. The keyboard I was using was an Apple unit and apparently not supported due to its built in USB hub, but have not bothered to try a PC keyboard yet. After updating to 1.51, I tried putting in a Transcend 150x 2GB SD card via a USB adapter and it worked. Even passed a 6 channel I/O speed test. I know that this did not work previously. I'm happy as my solder job may not have been at fault to begin with. Now if I can just get around to getting my hands on a PC USB keyboard, I can confirm that everything is good to go. I do probably have an early serial number unit, so maybe there were some things that needed to be addressed on certain machines where current one were working fine in the labs?

[John Willett]

Mine was an early one too - but I got Nagra GB to do the soldering job for me (nice people that they are).

Mine also needed a hard-drive swap as it had one of the Samsung ones in and they did that at the same time.