Schoeps MK22 - anyone ever tried it ?

[ISedlacek]

SCHOEPS open-cardioid

??

[tnjazz]

Still too new, I think.

Are they readily available across the pond? I haven't seen or heard of one over here yet.

[Don S]

Give Jerry at Posthorn a call. He will most likely have an opinion or at least played around with one.

[mljung]

I'll have to bump this one - has anyone tried mk22 yet..?

[Dave Ferris]

I would like to hear anyone's experience regarding the MK 22 capsule has well.

A very respected engineer in the jazz world here in town, Rich Breen-
RICHBREEN.COM
recommended those to me for recording my Steinway D.

[0VU]

Had a couple to try for several weeks before last Christmas.

They didn't go back.

[opegas]

I was incredibly tempted to use a pair last night, but the problem was I only had one. I wound up using the MK21s. So far haven't tried it alone.
Paul

[ISedlacek]

I have one MK22 passing here just now ... Within mono takes (putting MK21/MK2 as close as possible to MK22) I tried to compare them. To my ears (and within the limited mono recording) MK22 sounded very pleasant. MK21 was a tiny bit more "strident" in some higher frequencies, while MK22 sounded more "round". I really would like to try a pair .. I have tried a pair of MK4 before and did not like them much. I feel I may like MK22 better

[just.sounds]

Originally Posted by opegas

I was incredibly tempted to use a pair last night, but the problem was I only had one. I wound up using the MK21s. So far haven't tried it alone.
Paul

I have one MK22 passing here just now ... Within mono takes (putting MK21/MK2 as close as possible to MK22) I tried to compare them. To my ears (and within the limited mono recording) MK22 sounded very pleasant. MK21 was a tiny bit more "strident" in some higher frequencies, while MK22 sounded more "round". I really would like to try a pair .. I have tried a pair of MK4 before and did not like them much. I feel I may like MK22 better

You should work together

I did not hear them yet but an engineer I work with sometimes (E. Porter) Liked them quite a bit he considers them to use in his main system so if he did i will ask him about them.

[mljung]

Looking forward to hear more about them!



::
Mads

[mljung]

Bump





Any news about this?

Is this one of the best SDC (open) cardioid on the market [compared both to the usual as well as the unusual suspects].

Who tried them - just good experiences or some disappointments too..?

Do they seem neutral or slightly colored?

::
Mads

[9sbean]

Planning to buy a pair CCM22 in the very near future. I have a pair of CCM4 for almost 10 years now, and they did the job excellent. ORTF setup provide very good stereo image. The only thing I want to improve is the distant low frequency pickup. Comparing CCM4 with omni, this is the most distinct difference.
Since I need more inputs, a pair of CCM22 to my Schoeps fleet shall be the best choice at the moment.

[niquest]

I've had the chance to use them on chamber music recordings. They're very good. They act like a cardioid but they sound better, more omni, more open better bass. I wish I owned a few.

[pkautzsch]

Used one as cello spot in a baroque orchestra. Very nice sound, a bit of that MK21 shine, but more directional, and doesn't really color off-axis sound.

[mljung]

Promising experiences so far it seems - please keep them coming.

Also if someone have had any trouble using them or thought that it didn't reveal what they had hoped for, please join in as well. The more balanced this thread is the better.

::
Mads

[dbaudio]

I own 2 MK22 and have used them in a variety of situations.

They have become a welcome addition to my collection of Schoeps capsules and offer additional solutions to specific recording challenges, as well as serving as a very good capsule for general recording needs.

As stated previously in this discussion, the 22 is a cross between an MK4 and an MK21. The 22 is more directional than a 21, but has the extended low end and smooth, "lush," response of the 21.

I have used the 22 on vocal recording (operatic tenor and coloratura), piano (classical and jazz), solo strings, harp, and flute.

The original beta version of the 22 had a slight problem which made them "misbehave" when combined with other capsules in stereo arrays. The problem has been corrected for the production model, and the 22 works well with other Schoeps capsules.

The 22 is not a universal "silver bullet" solution to all recording situations. It is, most definitely, a valuable addition to the Schoeps arsenal of high quality tools.

[mljung]

Originally Posted by dbaudio

I own 2 MK22 and have used them in a variety of situations.

They have become a welcome addition to my collection of Schoeps capsules and offer additional solutions to specific recording challenges, as well as serving as a very good capsule for general recording needs.

As stated previously in this discussion, the 22 is a cross between an MK4 and an MK21. The 22 is more directional than a 21, but has the extended low end and smooth, "lush," response of the 21.

I have used the 22 on vocal recording (operatic tenor and coloratura), piano (classical and jazz), solo strings, harp, and flute.

The original beta version of the 22 had a slight problem which made them "misbehave" when combined with other capsules in stereo arrays. The problem has been corrected for the production model, and the 22 works well with other Schoeps capsules.

The 22 is not a universal "silver bullet" solution to all recording situations. It is, most definitely, a valuable addition to the Schoeps arsenal of high quality tools.

Thanks -

I'm curious about how they fared on a grand piano - do you believe they were fast enough or did they maybe soften the piano attack sound.
Since you say they're not the "silver bullet" where would you not use them?

Do you believe they would be "the perfect" main pair or is it more a spot-mike as I understand it is designed to be their main use.!?

::
Mads

[0VU]

I've been using them fairly extensively since October/November 2008 and now wouldn't be without them.

When I first got them, I posted some comments here.

Since then, I've only found them increasingly useful. For me, they've replaced the MK4 (never a capsule a I liked) and often find use where previously I would've chosen an MK21 over an MK4 and put up with any compromises caused by the latter's polar pattern simply to have it's better sound and reduced off axis colouration rather than those of the former. With the MK22 I have more or less the best of both worlds.

My applications for them range from fairly 'purist' single array/small mic count classical/jazz sessions/live work, through to much greater channel count and more 'mix' intensive 'crossover'/'filmic' stuff involving disparate combinations of orchestra, soloists, rhythm section, choir, etc., sometimes with micing shared with PA and sometimes with video people calling for reduced visibility and no mics in sensible places!

I've used them as ensemble spots on many sources, including:

Violins, Violas, Cellos,
Flutes, Oboes, Clarinets, Bassoons, Saxophones (Alto and Tenor)
Trumpets, Horns, Trombones, Tuba
Assorted percussion (particularly good on anything with a hard transient at the start of the note, where they capture the attack without adding hardness/rougness to the sound)
Pianos, Harps, Celeste, Harpsichord (I particularly like them on plucked instruments like guitars, harps, lutes and harpsichords)
Choir

and as front line solo spots (either for recording alone or sharing with PA) on:

Violin, Harp, Acoustic Guitar, Solo classical and crossover type singists (Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Bass),

They've also found a useful niche as replacements for MK21 (and often MK4) on classical jobs where there's a requirement for 'in-vision' and/or sharing with PA type close micing, especially in awkward acoustics. In early December I used 16 of them on extension tubes for desk micing (1 mic per desk) on high strings in a videoed for DVD concert recording of a chamber orchestra/choir/soloist/ethnic percussion thing in a cathedral. There were also a couple used to spot Tablas and Oud. The stage was quite a snug fit and we needed quite tight micing to get separation between some fairly loud percussion and strings seated very close by. With video requirements placing quite strict limitations on where we could put mics and how they could look, and the need to share with PA in a very reverberant acoustic, finding mics which would give what we all needed normally would probably have meant a mixture of a few MK21s and a lot of MK4s. Using the MK22 solved the problem and it took a lot less work than usual to make the string balance and blend sound acceptable. I would've used them elsewhere on the stage but I couldn't get hold of any more, so settled for an assortment of other Schoeps and Neumann KM100s also on extension tubes.

When used in a more conventional (sensible numbers of mics!) 'classical' rig, as sectional 'spots', the clean off axis response makes them very easy to blend in without colouring the sound of things around them and their on-axis sound is quite forgiving of the source/playing and a certain amount of positioning compromise which on lesser mics can cause things to leap out of the mix, screaming 'spot mic!'. (Of course, one never compromises on mic positioning to get a quiet life from the stage manager/lighting director/musicians/etc, etc.)

On up front solo spot use, again, the on axis response tends away from harshness and maintains a pleasant clarity and perspective from quiet to loud without ever sounding dull or displaying any inclination to becoming brittle or hard at higher levels (I mean levels in context of a classical performance, not someone belting a kick drum 4" away or giving it the full EWF Horns treatment!). Here again, the off axis sound simplifies the game of blending a solo spot without spoiling the sound of the rest of the balance.

Apart from any separate effects of the on and off axis sounds, the extra width that the pick up has over the average cardioid and the way that the width is maintained (or sounds as if it is) to higher frequencies than the average cardioid - much more like a subcardioid - gives a wider apparent 'sweet spot' with a more gentle transition between on and off axis. This makes the capsule more forgiving of close placement on sources which can be very position dependent (like acoustic guitars or cellos where a few centimetres or degrees of angular movement when very close micing dramatically can change the sound, or on vocal soloists who sway a lot from side to side) so giving a better blended and more even sound than a tighter polar pattern or one in which the directional effects begin lower in frequency, where movement can lead to tricky positioning things and/or frustrating on-mic/off-mic effects..

I don't often use them as a main pair but that's mainly because I tend to favour techniques which require something other than a cardioid pickup (though not exclusively/obsessively). It's just a personal taste thing. That said, where I'm choosing to use something like ORTF/NOS or MS with a cardioid Mid, then the MK22 is now (usually*) first choice. I find that it's polar pattern and tonal balance is much closer in width and midrange clarity to a DPA 4011 (a previous favourite for cardioid Mid use) than an MK4 but with more weight in the lower frequencies and a slightly ...er... smoother (for want of a better word) HF. For me, the LF still rolls off a little more than I'd like in a main pair but it's more or less a fact of life in un-eq'ed SDC directional mics and I prefer it to any of the other SDC cardioids I own (including MK4, MK5, MK6, KM140, KM84, KM88, 4011, CU32). It blends well with the MK8, MK6 and AK20 fig-8 capsules I usually use for Side duties and does take EQ quite benignly. In near co-incident setups like ORTF, the extra LF usually is welcome and the wider sweet spot gives an even-ness of coverage in the centre stage which combines with the smooth off axis sound to give a (for me) more pleasant image than a pair of MK4s in a similar set up. (I know it's no longer really ORTF/whatever without 'true' cardioids, and such arrays are just starting points which benefit from some adjustments to spacing and angle with MK22s but it's an easy way to describe setups with which people are familiar.)


It''s not all a bed of roses, though. (When is it ever?!)

* Main pair uses are the main place I find the MK22s key advantages mentioned above can be a mixed blessing. The retention of the polar pattern's width to higher frequencies can lead in some circumstances to the mic lacking 'reach'/'focus' (and other vague descriptive words) and sometimes the 'softer'/more even image obtained across a soundstage can work against them for people who want the sound/imaging of real ORTF. However, compared to more normal/true cardioids it does reduce colouration of the centre stage and room pickup, and reduces any effects of comparative dullness/lack of 'air' in the middle resulting from a true cardioid's inclination towards increasingly directional response with increased frequency and greater off axis colouration and uneven-ness. This isn't always an effect that's useful/desirable. Sometimes it works for you and sometimes against. Usual stuff really.

The same goes for the relative smoothness of the frequency response - if you need/want a mic with a little 'bite' or extra 'air' to help fix a problem, the MK22 isn't it (imo). Neither is it going to give you the LF response of an omni, though it gets closer than most directional SDCs to being usefully full range. (I know John Willett will be itching to mention the MKH40 here but I've never got along with those so I'm excluding them :p )

As main mics for solo classical piano in a relatively ambient mic setup I'd usually go for omnis as a first choice(though it depends on the usual details of room/player/piano/sound requirements, etc.) for their wider frequency response but if for some reason I needed to use something more directional or didn't need/want the LF extension, the MK22 would be high on the lst of mics to try. I've used them for jazz piano, in closer configurations (once looking down, from about 12-18" above the hammers (a bit of an acquired taste but it was what the client wanted and didn't sound as bad as I expected) otherwise in more conventional positions inside/very close to the piano)and they worked very well. This is another place that the wider sweet spot come in useful in picking up more strings and more of the soundboard without getting too many reflections off the lid. I didn't find that they lost any of the attack or sounded dull but they didn't emphasize/harden it and they didn't do what some mics do and change unrealistically in timbre according to how loud the piano was played.


As you've probably guessed by now, on balance, I really like the MK22. (And no, despite my enthusiasm, I don't sell them (or any other equipment) or work with/for anyone that does.) It just fits in very well with my way of working and addresses a number of problems I have with the MK4 (and many other SD cardioids) and has become one of the most useful (and most used) capsules I have.

It's probably worth bearing in mind that I come to it from my own idiosyncratic viewpoint and really not liking the MK4. As I said, I tend to be an omni-subcardioid-fig-8 user much more than cardioid as I like the sound of omnis and omni arrays but flexibility is important and there are times when omnis simply don't deliver what I want/am being paid to get and then the MK22 has really earned it's money. It's not perfect or some kind of universal catch all solution but I've learned not to be surprised when it works far better than I expected.


I bet I'll be editing to correct this one when I read it back!

[boojum]

Cogent and concise. Thanks so much!

[mljung]

Wow - thanks for this wonderful subjective and very thorough review, Impressive - it sounds like MK-22 is all one can wish for in the sdc cardioid field ...!

thumbsup

[dbaudio]

No mic or mic pattern is necessarily the ultimate answer. That said, with a good microphone, a good room, good performers, a bit of experience, and a great deal of common sense, one can achieve more than acceptable results with a wide variety of mics.

If I were limited to one capsule pattern, and was required to record a variety of music genres in a wide variety of circumstances, I don't think the 22 would be my first choice, despite my great fondness for the capsule. Personally, I would go with the 21 or the 2.

You asked specifically about using the 22 on piano, though I'm not sure if you specified the music genre, or if it was for solo piano or piano plus "friends".

The 22 is very good for piano in a number of configurations. It is particularly helpful if you are looking for that extra bit of reach/rejection and a bit more brightness than a 21 or a 2. Just the same, I prefer the 21 for piano when circumstances allow. Typically, I double mic piano with a set of 21s and a set of 4s, giving me options in post. If the situation allows (or warrants) I might include a set of 22s as well.

You should try to get a demo set of 22s and give it a go for yourself. Only you can determine if it is the best answer to your specific set of challenges.

Bottom line: You can't go wrong with MK2s, MK21s, MK22s, or MK8s. Contrary to some of my esteemed colleagues in this discussion, I also think you can't go wrong with MK4s, so long as you are aware of the cardiod specific characteristics. For a slightly smoother response in a cardiod, consider the MK4V -- a side address capsule. This is a very fine capsule.

Best of luck.

[0VU]

Originally Posted by mljung

Wow - thanks for this wonderful subjective and very thorough review, Impressive - it sounds like MK-22 is all one can wish for in the sdc cardioid field ...!

thumbsup

Sorry about that; I have been rather evangelical there but no, it's not. I've yet to find any mic that is and I don't really expect to.

I find the MK22 flexible and useful in a wide range of circumstances but that's just me; it's not perfect and its characteristics don't suit every setup or purpose. I find it a good capsule for my general purpose 'cardioid'ish uses but as I said, I've never been a fan of the MK4 and the MK22 suits me much better. Whilst it's become my most used SDC 'cardioid' choice, I still use all the others I mentioned when they better suit the job in hand and I could get by with any of them if I had to; I'm just lucky in having built up a collection of decent mics from which to choose so can 'just bung up a mic' knowing that any will likely be good enough and workable, or be more picky in choosing something specifically, as time/need permits. On the other hand, I'd prefer to start from a completely different place and use something more omni if possible but I try to keep an open mind not make decisions about micing before I get to a job and will use whatever I need to on the day.

It wouldn't be my desert island mic - that'd be an MK21/MK2S/MK2H, DPA 4041 or perhaps a Beyer MC740 but if I found myself stuck on a desert island with a bunch of CMCs and only MK22s to complete them, I wouldn't be complaining.


I don't know where you are in the world, mljung, but talk to your local Schoeps supplier and get some to try out for yourself. (And don't discount any of the many other great mics out there without trying them too.) You don't (afaik) know me, what kind of work I do, how I go about doing it or what sounds I like, and you might hate the results I get, or find that your perception and mine are radically different, or that your working methods and preferences/requirements are very different from mine so my likes and dislikes are irrelevant to you doing what you do. It's all just subjective opinion.

The MK22 is (imo) an excellent capsule for the uses to which I put it but, however much I like it, that doesn't mean anyone else will/should listen to/agree with anything I say. I know my kids don't

[mljung]

Originally Posted by 0VU

Sorry about that; I have been rather evangelical there but no, it's not. I've yet to find any mic that is and I don't really expect to.

I find the MK22 flexible and useful in a wide range of circumstances but that's just me; it's not perfect and its characteristics don't suit every setup or purpose. I find it a good capsule for my general purpose 'cardioid'ish uses but as I said, I've never been a fan of the MK4 and the MK22 suits me much better. Whilst it's become my most used SDC 'cardioid' choice, I still use all the others I mentioned when they better suit the job in hand and I could get by with any of them if I had to; I'm just lucky in having built up a collection of decent mics from which to choose so can 'just bung up a mic' knowing that any will likely be good enough and workable, or be more picky in choosing something specifically, as time/need permits. On the other hand, I'd prefer to start from a completely different place and use something more omni if possible but I try to keep an open mind not make decisions about micing before I get to a job and will use whatever I need to on the day.

It wouldn't be my desert island mic - that'd be an MK21/MK2S/MK2H, DPA 4041 or perhaps a Beyer MC740 but if I found myself stuck on a desert island with a bunch of CMCs and only MK22s to complete them, I wouldn't be complaining.


I don't know where you are in the world, mljung, but talk to your local Schoeps supplier and get some to try out for yourself. (And don't discount any of the many other great mics out there without trying them too.) You don't (afaik) know me, what kind of work I do, how I go about doing it or what sounds I like, and you might hate the results I get, or find that your perception and mine are radically different, or that your working methods and preferences/requirements are very different from mine so my likes and dislikes are irrelevant to you doing what you do. It's all just subjective opinion.

The MK22 is (imo) an excellent capsule for the uses to which I put it but, however much I like it, that doesn't mean anyone else will/should listen to/agree with anything I say. I know my kids don't

Thanks for putting your review into perspective - you made yourself very clear and I appreciate it!

::
Mads

[d_fu]

Just curious - hown many 22s have you got?

Originally Posted by 0VU

I'm just lucky in having built up a collection of decent mics from which to choose

Have you posted your list here?

It wouldn't be my desert island mic - that'd be an MK21/MK2S/MK2H, DPA 4041 or perhaps a Beyer MC740 but if I found myself stuck on a desert island with a bunch of CMCs and only MK22s to complete them, I wouldn't be complaining.

I guess real omnis would be best, they are least prone to wind noise - and what else would one be recording there...?
OT maybe, but what do you use the 740 on? Still hoping I can catch one on ebay one day...

The MK22 is (imo) an excellent capsule for the uses to which I put it but, however much I like it, that doesn't mean anyone else will/should listen to/agree with anything I say. I know my kids don't

You've still managed to make me consider considering to try/buy a pair with your report... Which would be my first Schoepses (I agree with you about the MK4 - haven't tried it often, but didn't like it, could be the off-axis response).
But then, there are other mics that I've really liked on plucked strings (lutes), e.g. my Beyer 805, or as flute spots (414 B-TL or again the Beyers). But then, it might not even have been the mic alone, but the musicians, the music, and the hall that made the sound turn out so well...

[Aural Reject]

Originally Posted by d_fu

JOT maybe, but what do you use the 740 on? Still hoping I can catch one on ebay one day...

You'll be lucky, I think 0VU's got a monopoly on them

[0VU]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Just curious - hown many 22s have you got?

Currently seven but I'll probably add at least a couple more this year. However, now I've found a good reliable source from which to hire them, I might spend the cash on something else.

Have you posted your list here?

Nope.

I guess real omnis would be best, they are least prone to wind noise - and what else would one be recording there...?

Good point - I hadn't thought of that

OT maybe, but what do you use the 740 on?

Pretty much anything from main arrays to spot mics. It's just a good mic that seems to work at least acceptably on anything at which I point it and actually very well for certain jobs. For some things there will be better mics but even where it's not the best choice, it's never given me a result that was actually bad, and with five polar patterns they have the flexibility to fill a lot of holes. I guess they're my default LDC mic when I just want something that'll deliver a result with minimum fuss, and my first choice mic for a few specific things.

I particularly like them for choirs (small and large), and cello, but they also come out a lot as spots on woodwind, low strings, tuned percussion, harp and occasionally brass. They get regular use as main pickups in spaced pairs, Decca Trees and/or as outriggers, as solo mics where their physical size isn't an issue, particularly for singers, cellists and some brass players. They can also work nicely on certian piano recordings, as drum overheads, and for acoustic guitar. Since I 'discovered' them, I've used them in some way or another on the majority of jobs I've done.

They're not 'neutral' or 'transparent' but I do find them extremely useful and when used examples in perfect condition can be bought for the same/lower prices than a C414 (the least I've paid for a fully working one is £100 (and much less for one needing £100 worth of work to bring it up to spec)) then for me there's no contest. They're like C414s but with more flexibility and without the vices.

You've still managed to make me consider considering to try/buy a pair with your report...

Sorry about that All I can say is that I've never (yet) regretted spending the money on them.

But then, there are other mics that I've really liked on plucked strings (lutes), e.g. my Beyer 805, or as flute spots (414 B-TL or again the Beyers). But then, it might not even have been the mic alone, but the musicians, the music, and the hall that made the sound turn out so well...

I don't know the Beyer 805s; apart from obvious things like M130s, M160s, M260s, MC740/840/834, M88, M69, M201, I've not explored their range. I do however think that they're a manufacturer that's rather overlooked and which makes some very interesting mics.

You're dead right about the musicians/hall and music being key to the sound. Get those right and more or less any half decent mic will sound good if you get it in the right place. Some mics will make your job easier than others but with a bit of practice and some effort and care in setting up, even quite cheap mics EDIT:[xwillx] can deliver a good result.

[mljung]

Originally Posted by 0VU

I don't know the Beyer 805s; apart from obvious things like M130s, M160s, M260s, MC740/840/834, M88, M69, M201, I've not explored their range. I do however think that they're a manufacturer that's rather overlooked and which makes some very interesting mics.

Just curious - have you used the M201 for any purpose in the "classical field"?

Originally Posted by 0VU

You're dead right about the musicians/hall and music being key to the sound. Get those right and more or less any half decent mic will sound good if you get it in the right place. Some mics will make your job easier than others but with a bit of practice and some effort and care in setting up, even quite cheap mics will deliver a good result.

Couldn't agree more! [although I would rephrase it to: even quite cheap mics can deliver a good result]

::
Mads

[Johns]

So much dislike of the MK4. Very curious to try the 22 but I will say the MK4 works very well for me. MK21 is still my most favorite. OVU, an excellent write up.

[Celloman]

I borrowed a pair from a friend and briefly compared to MK21 and MK4 mics. Not the most scientific of tests or optimum environs, but may offer some insight.

Free File Hosting Made Simple - MediaFire


Student orchestra concert and rehearsal in large church:
MK21sample (CMC5 amp, Nagra VI) (concert)
MK22sample (CMC5 amp, Nagra VI) (rehearsal)

Student Chamber Recital in small, noisy, brick and wood hall, both samples recorded simultaneously with mics on the same stand:
MK4Atest (CMC6, Nagra VI)
MK22Btest (CMC6xt, Nagra VI)

[Don S]

Originally Posted by Johns

So much dislike of the MK4. Very curious to try the 22 but I will say the MK4 works very well for me. MK21 is still my most favorite. OVU, an excellent write up.

MK21 is my favorite. But, there's some serious competition out there for MK4. The sennheiser 8040 in particular. But, my last 2 concerts, the performers were not on a professional level and I went with the MK4. It gave a very musical, but not too detailed representation.