Soundcraft or Yamaha FOH console

[Eldhrimnir]

Hi!
The place where I usually do live sound is about to upgrade their FOH desk (from a DDA S Series). Since I'm more or less the in house tech; they wanted my opinion on which desk to buy. The budget is in the 8k$ range (european street prices, mind you).
We narrowed it down to two 24ch contestants; the Soundcraft GB8, or the new Yamaha IM8.
Does any of you have any experience with either of these two consoles? Which one would you prefer? Or does someone have other suggestions?
Well...any opinions is welcome actually
Thanks!
/Daniel

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Eldhrimnir

Hi!
The place where I usually do live sound is about to upgrade their FOH desk (from a DDA S Series). Since I'm more or less the in house tech; they wanted my opinion on which desk to buy. The budget is in the 8k$ range (european street prices, mind you).
We narrowed it down to two 24ch contestants; the Soundcraft GB8, or the new Yamaha IM8.
Does any of you have any experience with either of these two consoles? Which one would you prefer? Or does someone have other suggestions?
Well...any opinions is welcome actually
Thanks!
/Daniel

I've used the GB8 and for the money, it's great. I can't comment on the IM8, however, I would take a look at the Yamaha LS9-16 (if that's enough channels) or the LS9-32 if you can persuade them to up the budget a little, these are digital desk's (built in great effects and graphics racks) and in a whole different league above budget analogue desks, seriously powerful if you know what you are doing.

Regards


Roland

[Eldhrimnir]

Thanks for the reply!
I've used the LS-9, even teached students how to use one, but I can tell you I'm not a big fan of digital mixers at all, so it's going to be all analog if I get to decide According to me, the entire Yamaha digital range (01v, DM2000, ls-9) is not intuitive enough for a live situation. I can clearly see the benefits and pros, but the cons are to big and numerous for my taste.
/Daniel

[Eldhrimnir]

And...as you say..the LS-9 is a lot more expensive, and 16ch wont cut it I'm afraid. Otherwise it would have been a good option. So they could have ditched all those crappy rack units
/Daniel

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by Eldhrimnir

Thanks for the reply!
I've used the LS-9, even teached students how to use one, but I can tell you I'm not a big fan of digital mixers at all, so it's going to be all analog if I get to decide According to me, the entire Yamaha digital range (01v, DM2000, ls-9) is not intuitive enough for a live situation. I can clearly see the benefits and pros, but the cons are to big and numerous for my taste.
/Daniel

About Yamaha digitals: O1V - not enough features, DM-2000 - least intuitive live console on the planet, it was not originally intended for live use. In the studio, it rocks. LS-9 - great value and incredibly intuitive, how can you say that it is not? I have used the whole range of them for years, from the O1V to the PM1-D. I now have a PM5-D, the version 2 is amazing, and as intuitive as you could ever want! Just got rid of a PM-4000, giant, terrible sounding, analog pig! Pres from hell, very unmusical. I'll take their wonderful sounding digitals any day! Ever since they started making good convertors back around 2001, their consoles have been great!

[maxpidge]

MC7L?

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by maxpidge

MC7L?

Great intuitive console, but out of his stated price range.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by maxpidge

MC7L?

LS9 is the same beast under the hood, same mic amp's, same processing, same effects, just without the touchscreen and the DCA's, bit of a bargain if you ask me, particularly if you are using a notebook to control it.

Regards


Roland

[plexisys]

The soundcraft is always a pretty safe choice. It's also a console that visiting engineers should have no problem working on. Pretty straight forward. Also "relatively easy" to maintain. There is little or no service you can do yourself on a digital board.

[bishopthomas]

If it was me I would push for the LS9. But if you don't like it that's cool. It has some weird issues to work around. I actually think it's faster to use a tablet PC rather than use the stupid cursor buttons. I've used the GB4 quite a bit and really liked it for what it is. You can't go wrong with the GB8.

[Erockin]

I've used the GB8 quite a bit and I've been very happy with it for the price. One complaint I have is the lack of pads on it but it hasn't been much of a problem.

If you really want to stay analog you should take a look at APB Dynasonic. I'm not sure what they have in your price range but its quality stuff. The owners/designers all come from Crest. Which is another company you could look into as well.

I have to admit I have no idea how much these console would cost in Europe though. It might help to know what features you are looking for too... # of auxes, groups, vca's?

Seems like now would be a good time to look for a used analog board. With digital being all the rave a lot of companies are selling off their analog boards that aren't getting work. You might be able to find something in your price range that is much better quality than either the GB8 or Yamaha.

[valleysound]

I would take the Soundcraft. Anyone can run an analog console. It's also been around a few years. Allen&Heath may have a similarly priced model with some slightly different features.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by Erockin

If you really want to stay analog you should take a look at APB Dynasonic. I'm not sure what they have in your price range but its quality stuff. The owners/designers all come from Crest. Which is another company you could look into as well.

I used an APB at a festival date about two weeks ago... first time seeing one & have to say I was pretty impressed with the desk. Good pres, solid EQ... super intelligent design & routing. Construction seems solid too... way hipper then a GB8. Pots & switches felt much better then all but MH4's & other top end desks. Didn't need the house engineer to give a tour or show me how to assign VCA groups either... I jumped right in on the line check.

Oh, did I mention that it sounded great???

[valleysound]

APB goes for about $15,000 depending on channel count. I used the Spectra for a festival a few weeks ago and I liked it. Lots of bells and whistles for a console in it's price range. Sound quality is great!
The MH3 is in the same category as the APB, but I think the APB had more routing options. It's been a while since I used the MH3 so I can't remember all the differences.

[Remoteness]

I agree with the LS9 crowd.

You have to realize that more and more folks are getting into the digital desk mindset.
A few years from now you will be asking, "man, I should have purchased the LS9."
IMO, an $8K EURO analog desk is not going to hold it's value against the functionality of a digital desk.
You will get a lot more mileage out of a Yamaha LS9 that any $8000.00 range (European street) analog desk.
You should hold out and do the right thing.

The fact that you have total recall/reset at your fingertips for that price point is awesome.
Returning bands can just recall their favorite settings.
Multiple band situations would be dreamlike.

I know of a couple of bands that use LS9s as their IEM monitor desks.
It's simply awesome.

And, the built in recorder can be used for a lot of things like...

Artist Playback Tracks
Intro Music
Announcements
Quick Down and Dirty Live Reference Recording

It seems like the LS9 is truly your best bet.

Originally Posted by Roland

LS9 is the same beast under the hood, same mic amp's, same processing, same effects, just without the touchscreen and the DCA's, bit of a bargain if you ask me, particularly if you are using a notebook to control it.

Regards


Roland

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

If it was me I would push for the LS9. But if you don't like it that's cool. It has some weird issues to work around. I actually think it's faster to use a tablet PC rather than use the stupid cursor buttons. I've used the GB4 quite a bit and really liked it for what it is. You can't go wrong with the GB8.

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

I agree with the LS9 crowd.

You have to realize that more and more folks are getting into the digital desk mindset.
A few years from now you will be asking, "man, I should have purchased the LS9."
IMO, an $8K EURO analog desk is not going to hold it's value against the functionality of a digital desk.
You will get a lot more mileage out of a Yamaha LS9 that any $8000.00 range (European street) analog desk.
You should hold out and do the right thing.

The fact that you have total recall/reset at your fingertips for that price point is awesome.
Returning bands can just recall their favorite settings.
Multiple band situations would be dreamlike.

I know of a couple of bands that use LS9s as their IEM monitor desks.
It's simply awesome.

And, the built in recorder can be used for a lot of things like...

Artist Playback Tracks
Intro Music
Announcements
Quick Down and Dirty Live Reference Recording

It seems like the LS9 is truly your best bet.

+1+1+1+1+1!!!!!! There is no substitute for total recall in a live sound situation. I have had as much experience as anyone with digital live consoles, and I would never go back to analog. Buying analog for your application would be a giant step backward in the long run. Think also of the outboard gear you won't need to carry or own!

[Remoteness]

That's the cool thing about a digital desk...

You have all this extra space or if the promoter had their way all these extra seats for sale.

Hey, sometimes you got to say, what the "freak" -- I held out as long as I could.

Anytime you revisit the same band you just recall their settings and make any current updates when applicable.

And, what about remix sessions? A complete time saver in every respect.

Today, the digital audio desk is a truly valuable investment.

[Remoteness]

The list price on a 32 channel LS9 is about $11K USD.
You can grabbed the 16 channel LS9 for about $6K USD.
Add a card for the extra channels and you're well under the original price point you were thinking of.

With that said, hold out for the 32 fader LS9.
I'm sure you can get that around the price of the analog desk.

[spookster86]

I will never buy another analog board!!tutt

I spent months pondering this same thing myself. Reading all of the literature I could get my hands on. I can't tell you how glad I am that I bought the LS9 32 channel. Which is expandable to 64 channels if you so desire. In my opinion having that many channels sort of defeats the purpose of having a digital board to begin with. The whole point to me is that you pin the stage once for the entire day and use the same lines/mics for every band. All you have to do is move the mics during changeover and recall the next bands settings. The whole reason that you needed 50 channel counsels in the past is that every band needed their own channels because we didn't have total recall. I absolutely love the LS9. Our next purchase as far as boards go is either another LS9 or an M7CL (the next step up in yamahas live digital series of boards). Here are some things to consider when making your decision.

1) I hooked up a wireless router and I can mix the show as I walk the venue from my laptop.
2) The only piece of gear at FOH is the LS9.
3) No more huge FOH rack to plug in.
4) We also opted for 2 of the adat lightpipe cards and we can multitrack any show directly to our HD24's.
5) We do a lot of shows with repeat clients. Now I just pull up a song on the multitrack from the previous show and I can soundcheck the band without them having to be there. I just ring out the monitors and I'm good to go.
6) Total recall (enough said there).
7) Faders are way sexier than knobs! (sends to faders rocks!)
8) The FX and dynamics processors are fantastic on the LS9

Anybody who says that the LS9 is not intuitive has either never used one or has got digitalphobia. Super intuitive and easy to use. I will never buy another analog board. We also own Midas Venice series consoles (which sound great and we still used quite a bit). I was curious to see how the LS9 sounded in comparison; I gotta say it sounds as good or better. The bottom line is that the amount of functionality you get on a digital board, especially one as well thought out as the LS9, in my opinion, far outways any argument against buying one.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Funniest thing I ever saw...I was at a concert at the summer home of the Cleveland Orchestra, Blossom Music Center and the concert was going well. About half way though the first set a feedback starts and I look over at the FOH engineer who is running a digital console that was big enough that it should have had its own zip code and he is madly punching buttons and going though menus trying to turn off the offending microphone. Finally when no one can stand it anymore the performer walks over and pulls out the microphone cable. The audience went wild. That is when I said I would NEVER have a console that I could not directly control the channels in a live situation. If you have to go through multiple menus and dig into the consoles digital innards then it has NO place in a live FOH situation IMHO.

[huub]

Aaaw, come on.. That's not the consoles fault..
I think nowadays it is part of our job as audio engineer to be able to work with a digital console. That engineer wasn't able..
Any digital console with enough faders can directly control every channels level..

[Adebar]

Originally Posted by Eldhrimnir

Thanks for the reply!
I've used the LS-9, even teached students how to use one, but I can tell you I'm not a big fan of digital mixers at all, so it's going to be all analog if I get to decide According to me, the entire Yamaha digital range (01v, DM2000, ls-9) is not intuitive enough for a live situation. I can clearly see the benefits and pros, but the cons are to big and numerous for my taste.
/Daniel

Totally agree. You can do almost everything with it, but you hav to push a lot of buttons sometimes. And regarding the sound I don´t like it at all. The preamps are easily improved even by a very inexpenisive RME octamic - I tried it.

The AD converter are ok, but on the output side the DA converter are not great too.
I often connect a benchmark DAC-1 to the digital out to use the anaolg outs of that instead of the Yamaha.

So, with good external micpres and an external DAC on the output it is a great desc - soundwise.

[Roland]

I think a lot of crap is talked about the yamaha desk's. sure they aren't the most esoteric AD/DA design, possibly the mic amps are not Millenia, but I know of some very respected engineers using their digital desks for classical recording where quality issues show up very quickly. Differences in mic amp design are quite subtle, and Yamaha are not novices in this game. What I would say, and I have used the GB8's quite a lot, is that the LS9/M7 will beat the "shit" out of cheap analogue desks. Couple to this they come loaded with enough effect that should you be buying these as rack units would cost £10,000 +, gate and compressor on every channel, 16 cue sends, matrix outs.

Now if you were comparing them with a Midas and 4 24 rack units of the best outboard available you may have a point. I was at a show where the sound was excellent, Midas Heritage 3000, good engineer who knew what he was doing, but the desk weighs 250kg that's a 4 man lift, plus there were 3 racks of outboard. Good as the sound was, I can match it with my Digidesign Venue, 2 cases around 40kg each.

Regards


Roland

[rwhealey]

We went from a DDA Q to a MH3 about three years ago. It's a great board, but I wish we had gone digital then. Recall would make my life much, much easier, and we have limited space out at FOH, so I'd love to get rid of the outboard.

If you stay with analogue, I second the suggestion of looking at APB. I used the ProRack House and was extremely impressed.

[spookster86]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

Funniest thing I ever saw...I was at a concert at the summer home of the Cleveland Orchestra, Blossom Music Center and the concert was going well. About half way though the first set a feedback starts and I look over at the FOH engineer who is running a digital console that was big enough that it should have had its own zip code and he is madly punching buttons and going though menus trying to turn off the offending microphone. Finally when no one can stand it anymore the performer walks over and pulls out the microphone cable. The audience went wild. That is when I said I would NEVER have a console that I could not directly control the channels in a live situation. If you have to go through multiple menus and dig into the consoles digital innards then it has NO place in a live FOH situation IMHO.

Man I gotta tell ya. Digital boards are different to navigate to be sure. But they are just as efficient to operate if you know how to use them. That engineer was clearly inept at that particular console. I'm telling you, I have both and I absolutely would rather use a digital console vs. analog any day. I can equate it to playing an instrument. It takes practice to get good at it. Just like it took you lots of practice/experience to get good at running an analog console. People fear change; And the engineers that refuse to move into the digital world out of fear are going to be left in the dust.

[bishopthomas]

I love the current digital consoles and they're perfect for touring bands or shows that allow time for a soundcheck. Having said that, for mixing monitors and festivals I still like to have an analog console. You can't deny that analog consoles are still faster than digital. If you've ever run 10+ mixes and 32 channels from an LS9 you would absolutely agree with me. Horrible console for mixing monitors.

[Roland]

It is more difficult to do things on a digital console, however it does a lot more than an analogue console. All the effects, the patching and output options, also there is often a lot of pressure to make consoles smaller. With the digidesign, often many users choose the profile controller over the D show, simply because of the footprint and the fact you get 24 input faders in such a small width. The LS9/32 provides 32 faders in a small width. There is more to setting up one of these consoles than a basic analogue, however you can have some of this preset so all you are dealing with are refinement's and some adjustment. In touring terms there is no comparison, the ability to rehearse a show and snapshot all your settings makes for much more consistency when out on the road. I'm not sure that digitals would have been the way to go 3-4 years ago, adopting new technology early on is always risky and I know of more than a few choice tales of digital desks going AWOL on shows. The current crop of digitals are a major step forward. I would go as far as to say that buying analogue now is not good commercial sense, particularly the further up the financial scale you go.

Regards


Roland

[fifthcircle]

I was dragged kicking and screaming into the digital world. For the longest time, it was give me my Midas and outboard gear. Then I started doing festivals where things changed at a moment's notice and I became thankful for the digital consoles.

First of all- Tom, if the system was feeding back and the engineer couldn't fix it, it sounds like there were other issues at play. I will leave it at that.

What I like about digital boards-

1. Recallable headamps. Sound check on Tuesday for Sundays show. Run 3 shows in between and get things back exactly where you want them.

2. Touring just became easier. Spec a "standard" console like a PM5D, program and travel with a compact flash card.

3. Comps on every channel. Even in the "purist" gigs, they can come in handy. How about that harp player that got real plucky at the show and their sound is booming out? Slap a comp on them mid stream and nobody will ever know.

4. Need that extra monitor send? Reconfigure or just add a graphic on the output. I don't know how many times I've had to add sends at the last minute for some band that just needs more...

That's just a few... I did have to sort of relearn about things like gain structures and such, but it wasn't such a big deal. It really isn't much different than mixing in a DAW.

--Ben

[GZsound]

This may not be important, but I ran sound on a Mackie TT digital mixer one time and found it to be total POS as far as being intuitive and easy to use.

The normal sound tech came over to help and it took him over a minute to find and eliminate a feedback ring at 2K.. Not intuitive at all.

On the other hand, I recently bought a used Soundcraft 328 digital mixer that I plan on using for small festival gigs this summer and it is really intuitive and sounds great.. and was under $1,000. 16 channels of ADAT or TDIF built in and dual Lexicon effects.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

I was dragged kicking and screaming into the digital world. For the longest time, it was give me my Midas and outboard gear. Then I started doing festivals where things changed at a moment's notice and I became thankful for the digital consoles.

First of all- Tom, if the system was feeding back and the engineer couldn't fix it, it sounds like there were other issues at play. I will leave it at that.

--Ben

The FOH mixer was either new at his job/was not familiar with the console OR he was subbing for someone who really knew what they were doing and he did not. It was apparent from watching him work that he had nary a clue to what was going on or how to fix it quickly. It was obvious to the audience that something was wrong because it went on for a long time. Why the microphone just started feeding back was weird since it was just sitting on stage with nothing around it or no one using it. I was going to go up at intermission to talk to him but he was surrounded by other people and I figured I would stay out of the fray. He did the rest of the concert with another employee sitting next to him and there were no more problems.