first schoeps pair for stereo recording: the best solution

[fafalio]

i have decided to buy a pair of schoeps for stereo recording.
i will record overall string quartet or duo piano-classical voice.
for you what is the best capsule to start?
consider probably sometimes i will record in good acoustic, sometimes not so good.
thanks a lot.
best regards Alessandro.

[hughesmr]

MK21 or MK4.

[666666]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

MK21 or MK4.

[Audiop]

Hi!

The way I think it makes more sense to go for a certain type of mic (and spec.) instead of a specific brand.

For example I like omnis for much but needed something with lower noise then my old workhorses so ended up with a pair of MKH8020 becasue of that (haven't used them yet due to a computer burn out from thunder).

I will likely order a pair of MKH8040 soon as well since I want something better that the AT4033 I have at hand right now.

For something in between these it would be fun to try a wide cardioid like Schoeps MK21 but that would weigh down my account to much for now but then I found out about a fellow Swede that makes top quality preamps and mics. He has a mic that has similar polar characteristics as MK21 but at a fraction of the price. Bought two but I haven't had time to try them yet.

Take a look:LINE AUDIO DESIGN

The low price comes from no advertising and working from home and also being passionate about it.

From people I know and trust I've heard that his gear is good, that is not "good for the price" but comparable to the top notch stuff out there.

I will do a shootout between his 8MP and Earthworks 1024 soon and also between MKH8020 and CM3.


/Peter

[mljung]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Hi!

The way I think it makes more sense to go for a certain type of mic (and spec.) instead of a specific brand.

For example I like omnis for much but needed something with lower noise then my old workhorses so ended up with a pair of MKH8020 becasue of that (haven't used them yet due to a computer burn out from thunder).

I will likely order a pair of MKH8040 soon as well since I want something better that the AT4033 I have at hand right now.

For something in between these it would be fun to try a wide cardioid like Schoeps MK21 but that would weigh down my account to much for now but then I found out about a fellow Swede that makes top quality preamps and mics. He has a mic that has similar polar characteristics as MK21 but at a fraction of the price. Bought two but I haven't had time to try them yet.

Take a look:LINE AUDIO DESIGN

The low price comes from no advertising and working from home and also being passionate about it.

From people I know and trust I've heard that his gear is good, that is not "good for the price" but comparable to the top notch stuff out there.

I will do a shootout between his 8MP and Earthworks 1024 soon and also between MKH8020 and CM3.


/Peter

Interesting - but CM3 is a cardioid [is it wide cardioid?]. Anyhow let us hear how shootouts went. I'm pretty interested in CM3 - if they are as good as you've been told.

Mads

[matthewd]

Hi there

In answer to your question, I too would suggest the MK21 wide cardioid or possibly the MK2S which are omni with a HF lift. You did mention some not so good acoustics so maybe the MK21s are best if you can only manage 1 set of capsules right now.

You'll never regret a Schoeps purchase in my book. I however am also another advocate of the Senneheiser 8040s which are magnificent.

Matt

[0VU]

From my own usage, including string quartets and pianos, I'd also suggest the MK21 as the most flexible and useful single pattern Schoeps capsule. It's the one I use most often and the one I have most of. For me, the MK2S is probably my most used omni capsule but choosing it as a sole pair would need careful consideration depending upon the type of programme and quality of room in which one works most.

However, pragmatically, in this case for a single pair of capsules, I'd probably suggest an MK5. It gives you a choice of an omni pattern with a polar response very close to the MK2/MK2S, and frequency response somewhere between the very flat MK2 and the brighter MK2S, and a cardioid pattern, also with some fairly gentle HF lift. It's possible that the HF lift of either could be too much in acoustics calling for close placement but it's not the slightly peaky HF lift of the diffuse field capsules, rather a wider and gentler boost that I find a good compromise for acoustics needing a mic placement flexibility somewhere between a close direct sound and fully diffuse field. More flexible for chamber music in typical 'chamber music acoustics' (if there is such a thing) than either flat or fully diffuse field equalised. I also think that if you work in a wide range of acoustics, you might get more flexibility out of having the choice of polar patterns than out of a single capsule, even one as flexible as the MK21.

You could go the whole hog and opt for an MK6 which, again, I find a very useful capsule but it's considerably more expensive than the MK5 and the polar patterns are more compromised than the equivalent single pattern capsules or the MK5, and the omni and cardioid HF lifts are sharper; more MK2S than MK2. The fig-8 pattern can be very useful but if you don't see a particular use for it, then spending the extra money and having the (slight) inconvenience of side incidence capsules might be pointless.

A couple of thoughts: will you be recording live or in closed sessions and do you already find that you favour a particular mic technique? Also, presumably you'll try the capsules on your short list before committing real money? The Schoeps dealers/distributors I know are all friendly and obliging people, and should be able to arrange a demo/loan pair of whatever you decide to check out. Many also are accomplished engineers in their own right and might be able to offer useful advice and guidance as you go through the evaluation process.

[goldendye]

Schoeps MK4 I made a lot of classical recordings and found this mic the best for voices and strings. for piano I use DPA's.

[Don S]

You can't go horribly wrong with either one, but given a choice I would go for the 21 having owned both.

[Don S]

Originally Posted by matthewd

I however am also another advocate of the Senneheiser 8040s which are magnificent.

Matt

Yes, the 8040 is a much different cardioid. It has an amazing amount of low end and excellent imaging.

[hanuman]

I worked all summer with 2 MK4 heads and everything sounded absolutely great. compared with other quality mics they stood out but did not try other capsules.

[hughesmr]

Re my earlier suggestion of MK21 or MK4: to me the choice would be based on [1] how often are you in bad rooms, and [2] how much will you be recording piano.

If you are rarely in bad rooms, then MK21 is the better choice as it will capture more acoustic. It affords you the choice of modified ORTF/NOS arrangements and also works in A/B. It has better LF response, which benefits piano recording greatly. In all, a very versatile capsule.

If you are in bad rooms a lot, MK4 will probably be easier to work with.

[fafalio]

thanks, a question.
can i be sure with a mk21 stereo pair to apply all the stereo tecniques for cardioid (ortf, nos and xy) and also stereo tecniques for omni (ab)?
best regards,
Alessandro.

[Don S]

Originally Posted by fafalio

thanks, a question.
can i be sure with a mk21 stereo pair to apply all the stereo tecniques for cardioid (ortf, nos and xy) and also stereo tecniques for omni (ab)?
best regards,
Alessandro.

You will not be able to do textbook ORTF (110 degrees at 17cm), but I do like the sound of a modified ORTF with MK21s. Start about 12 inches apart and 100 -105degrees

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by mljung

Interesting - but CM3 is a cardioid [is it wide cardioid?]. Anyhow let us hear how shootouts went. I'm pretty interested in CM3 - if they are as good as you've been told.

Mads

The CM3 is labeled "cardioid" at Line Audio's website but looking at the graphs it is 6dB down at 90degrees and 12dB at 180 degrees. IOW somewhere between a card and omni much like MK21.

Possibly I'll have MKH8040 here when things are up and running again.

These are the mics that will end up in the shoot out:

Earthworks QTC1
Sennheiser MKH8020
Sennheiser MKH8040
Line Audio CM3
AT 4033

and possibly,

Behringer ECM-8000
Sennheiser MK20
Sennheiser MK40


Preamps:

Earthworks 1024
Line Audio 8MP
Behringer

Converter:

Lynx Aurora 8


Sources:

Various guitars
Flutes
Djembe
Shakers
Triangles


/Peter

[mljung]

Originally Posted by Audiop

The CM3 is labeled "cardioid" at Line Audio's website but looking at the graphs it is 6dB down at 90degrees and 12dB at 180 degrees. IOW somewhere between a card and omni much like MK21.

Possibly I'll have MKH8040 here when things are up and running again.

These are the mics that will end up in the shoot out:

Earthworks QTC1
Sennheiser MKH8020
Sennheiser MKH8040
Line Audio CM3
AT 4033

and possibly,

Behringer ECM-8000
Sennheiser MK20
Sennheiser MK40


Preamps:

Earthworks 1024
Line Audio 8MP
Behringer

Converter:

Lynx Aurora 8


Sources:

Various guitars
Flutes
Djembe
Shakers
Triangles


/Peter

Wow - I'm really looking forward to this!

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by mljung

Wow - I'm really looking forward to this!

I will also measure intermodulation and harmonic distortion of these mics. That is going to be very interesting.

fafalio.. sorry for OT!


/Peter

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Audiop

I will also measure intermodulation and harmonic distortion of these mics. That is going to be very interesting.

fafalio.. sorry for OT!


/Peter

Oh great ! The prices of these mics look quite funny ... if they sound really good, it would be a miracle in this dark world )

But I would be actually VERY surprised if these mics sound any comparable to the well-known high end mics (Schoeps, DPA ...). I somehow doubt it ...

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by fafalio

thanks, a question.
can i be sure with a mk21 stereo pair to apply all the stereo tecniques for cardioid (ortf, nos and xy) and also stereo tecniques for omni (ab)?

Not XY ... MK21 is "too omni" for that array. I've had great success with them in wide ORTF (~14" 120degrees), modified NOS and mildly narrow AB (~50-60cm).

[Plush]

Why not just use the universal cardioid, MK4.

This is a great capsule and you are assured of being able to use it in all the classic set-ups. I think MK21 is also a good capsule for solo spotting and some main pair. However, it is not universal and it cannot do ORTF.

Beginners must master cardioids so why not start now.

[Don S]

Originally Posted by Plush

Beginners must master cardioids so why not start now.

Absolutely! I'll even go further and say that beginners must first master cheap (inexpensive) cardioids. If you can make a pair of SM81's (or equivilent) sound good, then you're ready for Schoeps. I think Ben Maas still has his!

[Jim vanBergen]

MK2s and MK4 are gorgeous capsules. MK21 is superb, yet in the middle of those two- if you could only buy one set of capsules, or if you were reinforcing classical music, I'd go MK21. Last pair I bought had both MK2s and MK4's. That gives me 5 MK2S's. Great stuff!!


Fafalio, if you have a chance, see if you can also compare Grace, Millenia, Neve or DAV. I have not used DAV, but I think my all-time favorite preamp for Schoeps is Neve, though I expected it to be Millenia HV-3D or Earthworks 1024. The Grace always sounds good but slightly warm with rounded/not as clear top end as 1024 and HV-3D, the Neve has almost everything- warmth + HF detail. Let us know what you choose!

JvB

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

but I think my all-time favorite preamp for Schoeps is Neve, though I expected it to be Millenia HV-3D or Earthworks 1024. The Grace always sounds good but slightly warm with rounded/not as clear top end as 1024 and HV-3D, the Neve has almost everything- warmth + HF detail.

JvB

Interesting. I once tried Neve and to me it sounded very coloured with boosted low mids and lack of detailes. Everything sounded a bit "unified" - big and alike, without the intimity, realism and details ...

[fafalio]

thanks to all of you. now my ideas are more clear.
i think a matched pair of mk4 for universal application will be a good point to start.
best regards,
Alessandro.

[John Willett]

Although the MK4 are very nice mics., they do lack a little at the bottom end in comparison to some others.

The spec. says -4dB at 50 Hz (they don't show it any lower on the website).

Both DPA and Sennheiser equivalents go lower.

A friend, who has the Schoeps actually often uses the Schoeps omni and fig-8 in parallel to give a cardioid response with a better bottom end.

Just so you are aware.

Every mic. is a combination of compromises in some way and the MK4 just seems to lose the bottom end more than others.

[fafalio]

Originally Posted by John Willett

Although the MK4 are very nice mics., they do lack a little at the bottom end in comparison to some others.

The spec. says -4dB at 50 Hz (they don't show it any lower on the website).

Both DPA and Sennheiser equivalents go lower.

A friend, who has the Schoeps actually often uses the Schoeps omni and fig-8 in parallel to give a cardioid response with a better bottom end.

Just so you are aware.

Every mic. is a combination of compromises in some way and the MK4 just seems to lose the bottom end more than others.

i had to buy oktava. People said to me: "no, they are not good"
i had to buy akg to upgrade oktava. People said to me: "no, they are not so professional"
i had to buy sennheiser 8040. People said to me: "they are not schoeps"

so, if also schoeps is not good i think i will ask God to build the first decent mic :-)

[jnorman]

i ve owned both DPA 4011s and schoeps cmc64s, and i greatly preferred the DPAs for general ORTF work. i think if i were buying schoeps again, i would go with a pair of the mk2 free field capsules, which is, i think, what ivo uses most often.

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Interesting. I once tried Neve and to me it sounded very coloured with boosted low mids and lack of detailes. Everything sounded a bit "unified" - big and alike, without the intimity, realism and details ...

Ah, Ivo- thanks, you make me realize my mistake. I'm certainly not talking 1272 preamp designs, which yes, have a radically different sound. The Neve preamps I think sounds great with Schoeps include the newer RNP 5012, and last series of Neve analog desks from 66 series to the VR and V Legend, ---like the Neve designed Focusrite Red and Blue range preamps-- which have wonderful, full spectrum. Not clean or absolutely ruler flat, but very pleasing to the ear. The Neve broadcast series of consoles I cut my teeth on are nothing like the early 80 series of studio consoles, for certain.

Hope that clears things up!

JvB

[Plush]

Originally Posted by John Willett

Although the MK4 are very nice mics., they do lack a little at the bottom end in comparison to some others.

The spec. says -4dB at 50 Hz (they don't show it any lower on the website).

Both DPA and Sennheiser equivalents go lower.

A friend, who has the Schoeps actually often uses the Schoeps omni and fig-8 in parallel to give a cardioid response with a better bottom end.

Just so you are aware.

Every mic. is a combination of compromises in some way and the MK4 just seems to lose the bottom end more than others.

There you go again, Sennheiser employee. Your comment is not germane to the discussion. Saying that a Schoeps cardioid lacks the proper bass is pretty much nonsense. You should already know that so that you can compare and contrast competitors mics in a realistic and accurate fashion.

Since when did reading a very conservative spec sheet from Schoeps lead you to say that it lacks bass in comparison to Senn. mkh series? You know very well that the mkh series are equalized in the bass and throughout their freq. response.

For example, I recorded the world's best selling organ record--selling over 250,000 per year since 1988-- with Schoeps cardioids. Critics have raved about the bass
extension. . .

The proof is in using the microphones, not talking about them.
You hacked me off on this one.

[John Willett]

Please - don't put things into my mouth that I did not say.

I never said that the Schoeps were not good, they make excellent mics..

All I said that they were a little weak in the bass - a fact that was mentioned to me by a good friend who uses Schoeps a lot (as well as Sennheiser, DPA, etc...) and took it up with Joerg Wuttke in person. I just mentioned something that anyone who knows the microphones knows.

When you are talking about Schoeps, DPA, Sennheiser, Neumann it is like talking about Audi, BMW, Mercedes, etc.. All high quality but with different characteristics and you choose the one with the characteristics that are right for you.

People who read my posts know I never shout about how "wonderful" or "great" a mic. may be as it is likely to get misunderstood. I just state facts or suggest a suitable mic. should be considered and what I post is from my own recording experience or experience from people I know very well.

That's all.