Using SMPTE TC with non-TC Capable Cameras.

[tsvisser]

I'm working with a production crew who are using prosumer cameras without LTC/SMPTE capability and I wish to use a field recorder for audio. In order to get electronic time code to the editor, I believe that I have two options...

1) Use a TC capable slate, like an Ambient or Denecke. Spend the $1k+ and problem solved... except this is for a TV show and if there is another option, would rather not have to slate every roll, its sort of a run and gun work flow.

2) Take the SMPTE TC signal from my recorder, breakout from 5-pin Lemo to XLR, and broadcast it wirelessly to the camera on one of its audio tracks. I have all the equipment I need to do this already, and doesn't require slating, so I would prefer this option.

For those of you who are editors, which method would you prefer? I know that there is a plugin for Final Cut that can import audible time code tracks into the timeline. Our editor is working in Premiere Pro. Do you know if this capability is available for Premiere, either built in, or via a plugin? If a 3rd party plugin, can you point me to it?

One advantage that I see with option 1 is for multi-cam shoots, we could just slate all the cameras involved one by one, where transmitting audible TC would require more gear. I may even be able to route the TC back into my recorder on a line input and then broadcast it via its built in speaker, but not sure if the level would be high enough for it to print to the camera hot enough to decode later.

[philper]

Originally Posted by tsvisser

I'm working with a production crew who are using prosumer cameras without LTC/SMPTE capability and I wish to use a field recorder for audio. In order to get electronic time code to the editor, I believe that I have two options...

1) Use a TC capable slate, like an Ambient or Denecke. Spend the $1k+ and problem solved... except this is for a TV show and if there is another option, would rather not have to slate every roll, its sort of a run and gun work flow.

2) Take the SMPTE TC signal from my recorder, breakout from 5-pin Lemo to XLR, and broadcast it wirelessly to the camera on one of its audio tracks. I have all the equipment I need to do this already, and doesn't require slating, so I would prefer this option.

For those of you who are editors, which method would you prefer? I know that there is a plugin for Final Cut that can import audible time code tracks into the timeline. Our editor is working in Premiere Pro. Do you know if this capability is available for Premiere, either built in, or via a plugin? If a 3rd party plugin, can you point me to it?

One advantage that I see with option 1 is for multi-cam shoots, we could just slate all the cameras involved one by one, where transmitting audible TC would require more gear. I may even be able to route the TC back into my recorder on a line input and then broadcast it via its built in speaker, but not sure if the level would be high enough for it to print to the camera hot enough to decode later.

I work with cameras like these all the time. The easiest and best method for everyone is to record your audio on your recorder, send a feed to the camera (wireless or wired), use a clap slate for each sync take and take good notes to help with the syncing later. If your slate can show TC (audio TC) so much the better. I'd recommend that you use free-run time-of-day TC, and that you get the camera's TC generator and yours as close as you can manually (ie set a value, then "3-2-1-go" and start the generators). The TC will not be in exact sync, but it will get them close, and comparing and waveform matching your scratch feed audio from the camera to the audio from your recorder will give them fine sync w/ the clap. The "TC on a camera audio channel" method can work but the editors really have to be ready for it (tested) and it requires hanging a LockitBox or etc off the camera.

Philip Perkins

[Whitecat]

Just be careful with time-of-day TC on cameras - depending on how they ingest the footage they can run into a LOT of problems. Final Cut Pro hates it, for example. It would be worth checking with the editors/picture post people beforehand to make sure it won't give them massive headaches in the digitising phase, especially if there's a lot of stop-and-start in the shooting (which there usually is!)

(I'm just speaking from a been-there-done-that perspective, it was a DSR450/full-size DVCAM tape shoot and FCP would not ingest the tape no matter what we did, was throwing up all sorts of errors from 'broken timecode' to 'end-of-tape' etc).

[tsvisser]

I think that I have found another solution. All Sony cameras that I know of that have a LANC terminal, spit a serial timecode message out of the LANC terminal.

Supposedly most Canons do too, but I'm not 100% on that. The camera in question is the XH A1. (the G1 had the extra module with full TC in / out)

Ambient makes a device which can read / log any time code format and convert it to any other format, including standard LTC / SMPTE on Lemo.
Ambient Products Timecode Lanc Logger
For this specific production, I can depart from the standard practice of allowing the audio recorder to be the timecode master and actually let the camera be the master. This box should allow me to jam synch to the camera and that way my timecode embedded in the audio BWF will match up with the video, when it is ingested into the editor.

Anyone see any problems with that? Anyone know for sure that the Canon XH A1 does actually have timecode data in the serial LANC data stream?

[tsvisser]

...and I have found one more, even cheaper solution, since Ambient was back logged on production runs of their LANC logger unit.

Fisher Robotics

I spoke Ben over there and he said that adding 23.976 was possible for future firmware releases, I bought one now, because it is great for standard NTSC broadcast purposes, my immediate requirement.

[jwh1192]

do you have a beep function like the old Shure FP32/33 mixers have ... makes a sort of audio slate of sorts ..

TC slate would be a good idea also but i hear you about the run and gun thing ..

using the audio recorded to your recorder and audio wirelessly jumped to the camera(s) when you hit the beep it would be recorded to both your recorder and the cameras

only caveat here is if the there are multiple cameras and they are not rolling at the same time .. tape changes or other unforseen issues .. and you cannot count on the camera op's to make sure you tailslate before they stop rolling .. to much for them to think about sometimes ...
... very easy to see in Final cut or Avid and easy to find when shuttling tape as it is a low tone when recorded but is a higher pitched beep when shuttling tape ... not that many people use tape machines anymore but you never know ...

audio waveforms are they only thing a producer i have worked with uses for 5 and 6 camera shoots of music .. camera mics on to allow him to get close to the multi-track that is being done separately ...

hope this has been of some help ..

cheers

john

[philper]

Originally Posted by terminal3

Just be careful with time-of-day TC on cameras - depending on how they ingest the footage they can run into a LOT of problems. Final Cut Pro hates it, for example. It would be worth checking with the editors/picture post people beforehand to make sure it won't give them massive headaches in the digitising phase, especially if there's a lot of stop-and-start in the shooting (which there usually is!)

(I'm just speaking from a been-there-done-that perspective, it was a DSR450/full-size DVCAM tape shoot and FCP would not ingest the tape no matter what we did, was throwing up all sorts of errors from 'broken timecode' to 'end-of-tape' etc).

That's because the system was not set up correctly. There is no reason at all why an FCP system cannot ingest tapes with broken TC--we've done it many many times. All these TC and LANC solutions for dinky cameras make things much more complex in shooting than they need to be. We've found that this keeping things very simple in concert shooting is important, if only because the camera operators on this kind of show often have very limited experience and knowledge of their cameras--it is best to let them do what they do and resync in post. Better to have a simple system that works than a more complex one that breaks down because everyone involved doesn't understand what they need to do. If you can roll long, roll-length takes w/o stopping, good. If you can get onto a rough time of day free run TC of the same flavor on every camera and audio in rough sync, better. If they can shoot a TC display of the audio TC, good too. If you can have everyone shoot a clap slate and keep rolling at the start of the set, really good.

Philip Perkins CAS