All leslies cabinets sounds different why?

[Walters]

1.) Some leslies sound more Vibrato or more Tremolo or More Chorus
even if the fast or slow speeds.

2.) What makes the difference in the Function of the Leslie to Make is more Vibrato?

3.) What makes the difference in the Function of the Leslie to make it more Chorus?

4.) What makes the difference in the fucntion of the leslie to make it more Tremolo?

5.) Is it the Baffle? , the pulleys?, speaker size?, Cabinet material?, the Scoop?
What makes it more vibrato? or more tremolo? or more chorus?

[tINY]

Not sure what you mean. There were a couple of versions and variations in aging of the AlNiCo magnets can make a difference.

Microphone technique can make a difference if you are listening to a recording...



-tINY

[Walters]

1.) The AM and FM vary from each leslie model and maker or brand

2.) Vibrato leslie Class sounds out of tune

3.) Is it the Baffle? , the pulleys?, speaker size?, Cabinet material?, the Scoop?
What makes it more vibrato? or more tremolo? or more chorus?

4.) 4 different leslie classes"""DIfferent mic Tech. will vary the AM and FM """

a.) Tremolo Leslie Class- how you mic it will sound more tremolo

b.) Vibrato Leslie Class- this is how you mic it will sound
more Vibrato

C.) Chorus Leslie Class- this is how you mic it will sound more Chorus
and could be the Cabinet material
and baffle that makes it sound Chorus

D.) Dopper Leslie Class- This is alot of Pitch Shifter and Phase shifter
This is how you mic it and the maker
or Cabinet material could make it sound more
Pitch shifter and Dopper effect

i just listen to alot of Beach Boy records brian wilson and some of his leslies
on certain songs have those Different leslie classes on one song the leslie will
sound really Vibrato Leslie like its out of tune and another beach boy song will sound very Tremolo leslie even if the Tremolo leslie class was set on slow speed it still sounds very tremolo sounding and like George Harrisons Leslie sounds very very chorus leslie class

i just wondered if it was the mechanism of the leslie or the Cabinet materials that
could put a leslie in a different class type you know what i mean?
or any mic tech that you know about that produce these 4 different class sounds?

[tINY]

Don't forget the room you put it in.

I'm not sure that leslies ever really had a "chorus" sound to them, but if you play through a rotating speaker AND a normal one, or two rotating speakers, you could get that sound.



-tINY

[sounddevisor]

Walters -

You may also be hearing differences in how the organ itself is set up as well as the Leslie cabinet. Many Hammond organ models (including the classic B3) have an onboard Chorus/Vibrato generator which can be turned on and off for each manual (keyboard) as well as switched between several settings of either chorus OR vibrato. Also, different drawbar settings on the organ will have an effect on the motion of the sound - a drawbar setting that has a lot of high-frequency content will probably (depending on the mic setup) come across with more positional and frequency modulation versus a drawbar setting with less highs (i.e. a pad type of sound) which will probably have more of the volume modulation component.

Next, every Leslie cabinet (even of the same model) will have somewhat different speeds of rotation of the horn (upper part) and rotor (lower part). Also different ramp-up and ramp-down times (from slow to fast and vice-versa). This is due to aging of the belts and motors, as well as setting up the belts on different sized pulleys. In addition, it is pretty common for some players, particularly in the jazz idiom, to disconnect the motor from the low rotor so that only the upper horn spins. This helps give the low-end more definition and punch, sometimes desireable if you are playing left-hand/pedal bass particularly in a jazz context.

Next, there are a number of different Leslie configurations - there are single speed Leslies (stop or fast), single-speaker Leslies with a single driver firing down into a rotating baffle, and of course the classic two-speed, dual driver set up such as the 147 or 122.

Finally, different mic techniques can emphasize different aspects of the sound. If you think about it, the physics of the Leslie sound are very complex - you have a rotating horn beaming fairly directional highs in constant motion, which will give you both volume and frequency changes, plus (possibly) a low rotor, rotating in the opposite direction, beaming less directional low end also giving you volume and frequency variations, all interacting with the surfaces of the room unless you are playing out in a field somewhere. Depending on how you set up your mics, it is very possible to bring out more or less of the various volume, frequency, and positional changes in the sound.

So, after all that long-winded blah-blah-blah, the short answer to your question is:

it's everything, all the factors you mentioned combined, plus some additional factors such as the chorus/vibrato and drawbar settings of the organ itself.

Hope this is helpful information.

-sounddevisor

[dasbin]

I did FOH for a jazz show with a B3 and Leslie the other day. Once the coolness factor wore off, I started hating it. That cab is the honkiest, stupidest-sounding thing ever. It sounds like a cackling witch trying to sing, and it distorts into crap as soon as the volume gets pushed (which the player wanted to do). It made an otherwise beautiful-sounding jazz band very ugly, and there was nothing I could do about it.
I pretty much totally took it out of house mains but still it took over the band's sound and uglified it.

I really don't understand why anyone likes these things. There's no particular effect the Leslie makes that can't be nicely replicated with digital effects, which you could actually make sound good if you apply them to a Rhodes or something nice sounding like that.

[sounddevisor]

Dasbin -

Sorry to hear you had a bad B3/Leslie experience. I don't know anything about your situation, but I'd like to defend the general idea of the B3/Leslie combo.

you wrote:
it distorts into crap as soon as the volume gets pushed...

Controlled distortion can be part of the player's sound. Depending on how the instrument and cab are set up, it's often possible to use the B3 "scream" in a musical way, bringing it in and out much the way a guitarist might go from clean to distorted tones by driving the amp harder. Also, which drawbars are pulled on the organ can have a big effect. Is it possible that the organist in your situation was inexperienced, or used to playing a simulation rather than the real thing, and just not able to control the tone?

As a point of interest/education, one of my heroes of the B3 is Dr. Lonnie Smith (not to be confused with Lonnie Liston Smith - both keyboard players, but two totally different people.) I've seen Dr. Smith play live a number of times, and it is always an incredible experience on a whole lot of levels. One of the things that blows me away every time is the range of sounds he is able to get out of the instrument, from tiny little whispers and whistles to huge, screaming chords, all while laying down totally solid, groovy bass lines. And he makes it all look effortless!


you wrote:
There's no particular effect the Leslie makes that can't be nicely replicated with digital effects...

Sorry, but NO WAY! I have checked out many (although certainly not all) of the Leslie simulations out there, and I have never heard one that could really compare to a real Leslie. Maybe in a recording situation where the organ (or whatever instrument) is going to be buried in the mix. But from a player's point of view, there's just no comparison - a real Leslie will give you much more expressivity and a much wider range of sounds than any digital effect I've heard. In fact, if given the choice, I would probably rather play a fake organ through a real Leslie than a real organ through a digital sim.

Back to your original point - without knowing the situation, I can't say what was going on. But I would guess that either: the B3 or Leslie was f**cked up in some way; or the player didn't really know what he was doing. In either case, don't judge the Leslie by that experience - there actually is a reason that the cab gained the popularity it has!

-sounddevisor

[dasbin]

It just seemed like the cab was putting out almost entirely 300-800Hz frequencies, which just sounded like HONK from the house. Plus a little top-end harsh scratchiness when the playing got loud.

The player seemed very experienced, and whenever I commented on the sound his only response was, "no no, it's supposed to sound like that."

You could be right in writing off this experience to some form of bad luck, but for the moment the only thing I think of a Leslie is that 99% of its popular appeal comes from the vintage factor. It just isn't pretty sounding.

[sounddevisor]

Dasbin -

If my Leslie was only putting out 300-800hz, I would have it in for repairs in a heartbeat. Either there was a problem with the amp, or that was just the way the player was pulling drawbars and voicing his stuff - in which case, I hope I never have to hear him play! :-)

On any case, sorry you had to suffer through it. If you want to give the sound of the Leslie a chance to redeem itself, let me suggest a couple of organ trio recordings:

Dr. Lonnie Smith - Boogaloo to Beck (all covers of Beck tunes). Dr. Smith's usual great playing, and a good sounding organ/leslie setup. Check out the opening of the first track, "Paper Tiger."

Stevie Winwood - "About Time"

There's plenty of others out there, those are just two that have been getting played here recently.

Hope you change your mind!

-sounddevisor

[Dave Martin]

Also buy a couple of Jimmy Smith's records, and some of the Joey D Francesco recordings - in the right hands, a B3 and leslie is a magical combination.

Oh - I saw Joey DeFrancesco last Sunday night, playing the one of those digital B-3's through a couple of Leslies. the digital B3 didn't sound as bad as I thought it would, but it wasn't as good a tone as he gets on his records.

[Jim Williams]

I haven't messed with these since about 1970. Here's what I remember about them. Distortion levels of the B3 can be adjusted in the organ's back via a trimpot for gain. Crank it up for that organ grind, back it off for classical.

The top rotor in a 147 has 3 rings for setting rotor speed. My favorite trick is to put the pulley on the slowest speed ring and then remove the felt plug stuffed into one of the rotor horns. This allows double the sound to come out while still having a nice choral setting.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Dave Martin]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

My favorite trick is to put the pulley on the slowest speed ring and then remove the felt plug stuffed into one of the rotor horns. This allows double the sound to come out while still having a nice choral setting.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Jim, my understanding is that one of the two rotor horns is a dummy that's only there as a counterweight. Are you sure that it's connected to the driver? (I know - I'll look at mine this afternoon...)

[Walters]

When i use a Leslie with my guitar plugged into a leslie pre amp
the leslie is still plugged into the Hammond B3 organ and the
Vibrato/Chorus scanner Controls the Leslie motor speed.
When the Scanner is set to Vibrato the Leslie motor speed is
different and the leslie goes out of tune by the motor drifting in
and out like a slipping belt the leslie sounds out of turn even
though i got my guitar plug in the leslie without using the hammond
keyboard just the Vibrato/Chorus to Control the Leslie motor speed
and variations
Each Leslie i have played through has a different FM and AM and they
all vary why is that?
Why does the Vibrato/Chorus in the hammond B3 Control the leslie
speed motor in the Leslie ?


1.) Does the vibrato/chorus scanner in the Hammond B3 organ set to the Vibrato does it make the leslie speed different?

2.) So when the Vibrato/Chorus scanner is on Vibrato setting the Leslie cabinet
speed is different

[sounddevisor]

Walters -

Normally the Leslie speed control is separate from the Vibrato/Chorus control. Typically the Leslie will be controlled by a half-moon switch on the front rail of the organ, usually labeled Tremolo/Chorale. The Vibrato/Chorus selector is usually a knob up near the upper manual, there are probably two paddle switches (if it's an actual B3) that turn the Chorus/Vibrato on and off for each manual.

I suppose it's possible that someone wired one of those switched to control the Leslie, or somehow hooked it up to the C/V scanner - seems odd but possible? Or, sorry, but are you confusing the two controls?

you wrote:
Each Leslie i have played through has a different FM and AM and they
all vary why is that?

See my post above - every Leslie will have a different speed due to aging of belts and motor parts, plus different belt/pulley setups, etc. Different speed = different AM and FM. Physics strikes again.

-sounddevisor

[Walters]

It sounds very different what makes a vibrato Leslie?


what makes a chorus leslie?

[sounddevisor]

Walters -

There is no such thing as a "vibrato Leslie" or a "chorus Leslie."

Please read my long post above (#5 in this thread) explaining the various onboard effects of the organ (Chorus and Vibrato) and the different types and setups of Leslie rotating speakers.

Maybe you need to find a different way to ask your question. If my post doesn't explain things to you well enough, then I'm not really sure what you are looking for.

-sounddevisor

[Walters]

Yes there is a difference to my opinion the AM and FM do vary alot from
different leslie makers and models i just want to know what makes the
AM and FM vary so much is it the pullys the belts the baffles what is it?

How to make a Leslie into a Vibrato Leslie so the leslie is out of tune

[sounddevisor]

Walters -

I wrote this before:

See my post above - every Leslie will have a different speed due to aging of belts and motor parts, plus different belt/pulley setups, etc. Different speed = different AM and FM. Physics strikes again.


I could just keep on giving you the same answer to your same question, but instead, I think I'll just be done with this thread.

bye-bye now.

-sounddevisor

[Walters]

So you think its the Different motors have different rotation physics?


Different speeds= different FM and AM

your saying if i hook up my variac variable transformer so i can change
the speed on my leslie is going to make my leslie more vibrato or more
tremolo of what im talking about. For sure the FM and AM change with
the speed im talking about more of the physics not the speed of the
FM and AM vary with speed.

Im talking about the Modeling of the construction that makes a leslie different
the pullys,belts,wood,baffle,motors

I think its different motors even if its 2 speed or 1 speed it has to do something
with the rotations are different

or the Baffle size can make a difference
or the pulley size
or the belts
or the crossover network- i think has alot to do with making a leslie more
chorus from a Vibrato Leslie

is the Chorus/Vibrato Scanner hooked up to the leslie motor?

Does some leslie models or maker have a oscillator/ generator to control
the motor speed inside the B3 or leslie?

maybe different motors RPMs= different FM and AM varying

[Bluzzi]

Walters - The answer was given to you over and over above! You are not reading it or understanding. Do you have access to a real Leslie and Hammond combination? If you did you would can open the back of the LEslie and see the rotors doing their job and teh speed changing.

The pitch shift is the doppler effect of course and the vibrato is just the horn spining in and away from you and that is why the volume fluctuates.

There is nothing else (the chorus is in the Hammod organ itself).

Other than that just enjoy this magical combination for the sounds it makes.

"Point finale"

Jim

[Walters]

So then whats the different pulley/belt setups then ?
can your list the different pully/belt setups?
and the different leslie motors ?

[Bluzzi]

I think you need to find the Hammond site (Google it). There you will find people that can give you specific motor models etc.

But yes there are pulleys for the horn. You can change the speed but its fixed. In other words you have to do it manually.

Some players like to have a Leslie actually Stop spinning. There are many mods out there.

But Walters, if you had a Leslie to look at you would see its pretty simple. If you are trying to recreate it electronically and that is why you want to understand the effect then forget it. You will come close but never the same. The Leslie effect needs an actual physical space to work properly. If you hear a Leslie in a room with a good player its an amazing aural treat. If you hear it in a recording its not exactly the same and there I think is where some synthesized effects can work. But its still not the real thing! But the Hammond is a synthesizer anyways, its just an additive frequency type. Its the combination of the Hammond and Leslie speaker cabinet that made it popular. The Hammond/Leslie combo never gets in the way of guitars, vocals, bass etc. Its probably due to its limited frequency range (8Khz I think). So it always remains "there" but doesn't clash easily with other instruments. No I'm not a keyboard player but I do own a C3 with a 147 Leslie. Just doing simple chords on it can bring up inspiration! Its a beautiful and amazing instrument.

If it was more portable more people would be exposed to it. The only negative.


Jim

[Dave Martin]

I can't help but think that you're confusing the sound that a Leslie makes with the vibrato and chorus settings which are part of the organ...

[Walters]

No because when i hear different recording of guitars playing through
different leslie models and brands some leslies sound very tremolo, some
sound very vibrato , and some sound very chorus


George harrisons leslie is very very chorus leslie is a special leslie to make
that Chorus leslie sound even when its at fast speed the
overall its more of a Chorus leslie why is his leslie so chorus
what make it chorus even at all speeds.


Steve Ray - I have the Vibratone fender leslie and it has a very different tremolo
sound than any other tremolo leslie model i have heard steve ray
used it also.


Beach Boys- They have all these different leslies the Chorus,Vibrato,Tremolo
leslies on there records guitar playing through them not organ
to make a leslie sound vibrato how did they do this?

[Bluzzi]

Well its all "doppler" shift. Its more prevalent with the high frequencies. The Leslies used with Hammond organs will have the highs rotating as well as the lows being rotated (in a different way but same result). You will get certain sounds as the speed increases and slows as well. There is an interaction with the lows and the highs as they come and go.

Harrison used a 122 Leslie I believe with an adapter for guitar or his amp.

The Fender Leslie I have heard and sounds more "warbly" than a larger Leslie. I haven't opened one up but I think it could be the speed as well as the bottom not interacting with th highs the same way. I would have to have a look inside to answer that.

If you try your guitar through a Leslie it will also sound different than an Organ. That is because the waveforms are also not the same as well as the Harmonic content.

Jim

[Walters]

why do leslie have such a
low impedance input?

What make a leslie want a low impedance input?

Is the Leslie or Vibratone speaker
different than a normal speaker?

Most normal speaker are high impedance inputs?

[Punchmo]

Originally Posted by dasbin

It just seemed like the cab was putting out almost entirely 300-800Hz frequencies, which just sounded like HONK from the house. Plus a little top-end harsh scratchiness when the playing got loud.

The player seemed very experienced, and whenever I commented on the sound his only response was, "no no, it's supposed to sound like that."

You could be right in writing off this experience to some form of bad luck, but for the moment the only thing I think of a Leslie is that 99% of its popular appeal comes from the vintage factor. It just isn't pretty sounding.

A properly miced, proeprly maintained B3/Leslie should not sound like that. What mics were used and where were they placed?

[Bluzzi]

Why am I getting the feeling I'm getting baited here? Hmm....

Anyone else get the feeling this is going nowhere?

Jim

[agauchede]

I'm Cool

[max cooper]

A few standardized definitions:

Tremolo: aka Amplitude Modulation; a rhythmic rise and drop in loudness.

Vibrato: aka Frequency Modulation; a (usually) rhythmic rise and drop in pitch

Chorus: a (usually) rhythmic rise and drop in pitch applied to a slightly delayed signal which is then combined with the same signal but with no effect. Called 'chorus' because the slight variations in pitch and timing mimic the sound of two or more singers attempting to sing the same part the same way.

These definitions are often misused.

A Leslie cabinet creates a type of Tremolo by virtue of the fact that the source is (rhythmically) cycling towards and away from the listener (or microphone). Also creates a type of Frequency Modulation through the 'Doppler Effect' (like when a train or a car is moving quickly towards or away from you while sounding its horn.)

Some Hammond Organs (as stated above and above) have a 'Vibrato and Chorus' unit, but this doesn't pertain to the Leslie, other than the fact that the Vibrato or Chorus is often used WITH the Leslie.

The most important thing here is to not confuse terminology.


Oh...some Leslie speakers don't have permanent magnets; they need a charge before they'll function (much like many of us).