Tascam or Radar,,,whats the difference?

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by weedmaker

Not counting 2", there are two contenders for music studio recorder/DAW at the moment: PT and Nuendo/SX with high-end ADDA. RADAR is a possible option but require a total recall desk like 2". Everything other, waste of business/time/money/nerves...

Requires? Hmmm. And to think of 1000's of hit records over the years that were made doing it all wrong!

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by bhenderson

Agreed. I see no point in improving the power supply quality unless it will have a positive impact on the sound quality. As an example, the +/-12 volt supplies in the less expensive systems will output a lower maximun signal, thus decreasing the signal to noise ratio of the console. With RADAR's +/-18 volt rails you will be able to output a full +24 dBu to the console.

+24 dbu to the input of an analog console is going to create some problems. Most high end console designs offer a trim level pot of about +-10 db. If a signal recorded near full scale gets to this input, the -10 db will set the signal level to +14 db into the console. Say you want to add +12 db EQ at 1k. Add 12 db to 14 and you're at +26 db and near or at clipping in the analog console's electronics.

The Radar 96 I used was into a Soundcraft 6000 console. The Radar levels could not be at full level even with the console trim at -10 db without peak lights flashing. So the Radar was "turned down" to compensate.

The HD24XR outputs +19 at dig 0. With hot tracks I still must turn down the input trims on the console to -6 or even -10 db to allow for some gain staging or boost EQ. S/N of the console is not ever a problem when working at these elevated levels unlike the 'ol +4 analog tape days.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Fletcher]

Dude... you need a desk with some fukking headroom!!!!

My shitty old Yomama PM-2k handles the output of a RADAR without a struggle... maybe the Soundcrap 6k is why you were having high end clarity issues with the RADAR... the top of those desks is pretty smeared sounding... not to mention that the low end of the desk rolls off WAY too high creating a rather unpleasant phase shift in the low frequency regions... unless you've fixed all that [which I dare say will take significantly more work than mere chip replacements... also the grounding of those desks leaves a lot to be desired... but I'm sure you knew all that].

[jackmac]

Sounds like the comparison between the Alesis and the RADAR is useless based on the many variables everyone brings to the table. I own a RADAR w/Nyquist and I think it sounds great. Like Fletcher says, it just sounds really finished during playback. I haven't heard an Alesis in my setup but if I had the chance to try one I would. Even if it ended up close in sound quality I still would stick with the RADAR.

2 cents

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Dude... you need a desk with some fukking headroom!!!!

My shitty old Yomama PM-2k handles the output of a RADAR without a struggle... maybe the Soundcrap 6k is why you were having high end clarity issues with the RADAR... the top of those desks is pretty smeared sounding... not to mention that the low end of the desk rolls off WAY too high creating a rather unpleasant phase shift in the low frequency regions... unless you've fixed all that [which I dare say will take significantly more work than mere chip replacements... also the grounding of those desks leaves a lot to be desired... but I'm sure you knew all that].

That PM 2k probably has the input attenuator in the minus range to avoid input overload of the front end. The same thing is done with the 6000.

This was a heavily modified SC 6k with low end set to -3 db at 2 hz. There is no low end phase shift as it kicks in below 20 hz therefore not in the audio band. Same was done to the top end as the bandwidth is set -3db at 200k hz. These opamps do not smear the top end like 33078/9's, 5532's, TL072's etc. (Didn't I recently read a post from Fletcher raving on how great TLO71's sounded in a Trident Series 80? So, in Trident good, in Soundcraft, bad?) Coupling caps are MIT multiCaps. Internal wiring harnesses are custom made silver wire built by Ray Kimber. It has a custom 25 amp low impedance power supply.
This console is not a problem.

BTW, I am not a pimple on a cow's ass, my name is Jim.

As in Williams
Audio Upgrades

[js1]

There's a setting on the Radar to set the max output from +18 dbu to +24 dbu by (if memory serves) +2 dbu increments.

+24 dbu is a broadcast standard.

js

[DaveH]

Originally Posted by PT User

Anyone seen this Tascam unit yet. I seen this and said to myself be nice to downgrade to a mbox and still us PT on the side, along with this Tascam unit.
Nice price too. Curious what others think? Looks very tempting


http://tascam.com/Products/x48.html

Eddie

I don't want to sound too harsh, but for me.

I don't care for the way Tascam is handling support
for their "discontinued" models. Which is something you might
want to take into account.

http://www.themx2424board.com/forums...?showtopic=174

Remember these comments started long before the "replacement" X48
has even shown up. (Support has become poor for MX-2424)

The (2) MX-2424'S and (2) DM-24's have been one of my
worst expenditures.

I am moving to a Mackie DXB with 32 channels of Apogee 16x ad/da.
I also need a "Radar" or whatever. But for myself I will not be considering
Tascam.

Best,

[No4PCs]

So, buy the x-48 and a good converter?

[midnightsun]

TASCAM will turn around and release a great product and then provide honorable customer service and support..... This is an example of "magical thinking." RADAR sets the gold standard of product quality and customer support. Does the RADAR really cost more? I consider that my time is valuable and since my RADAR has NEVER crashed that is worth something. How much does it cost you to have 5 hours of bullshit with your setup? What are the long term ramifications of any crashes when working with clients. If your time is worthless and you are not prone ulcers when dealing with customer service bullshit go for TASCAM X48-- you will save a nickel.

[Jim vanBergen]

I can't imagine Tascam releasing the X48 after SOOOOO much of a long time. We were all excited about it...vaporware.

Alesis...customer service? Nah. How many times in the last few years have they shut down for restructuring? I still own some Alesis stuff but... no support at all.

I have a rack of DA88s and DA38s that are worth more sitting there as an emergency backup than they are on Ebay...I bought Mackie HDR/24s because they sounded OK and were cheap...then IZ came out with a VERY reasonably priced Radar II that smoked the Otari version.

Today...everyone does PT (or some In the Box solution) but I still prefer to have a recorder that acts like a recorder. I like the Radar. The Alesis stuff is ok for cheap solutions- but that is always a huge part of the deal. If you want pro gear well designed with quality accessories and great support, you have to PAY for it, somewhere.

[ClickTrackAudio]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

I can't imagine Tascam releasing the X48 after SOOOOO much of a long time. We were all excited about it...vaporware.

Alesis...customer service? Nah. How many times in the last few years have they shut down for restructuring? I still own some Alesis stuff but... no support at all.

I have a rack of DA88s and DA38s that are worth more sitting there as an emergency backup than they are on Ebay...I bought Mackie HDR/24s because they sounded OK and were cheap...then IZ came out with a VERY reasonably priced Radar II that smoked the Otari version.

Today...everyone does PT (or some In the Box solution) but I still prefer to have a recorder that acts like a recorder. I like the Radar. The Alesis stuff is ok for cheap solutions- but that is always a huge part of the deal. If you want pro gear well designed with quality accessories and great support, you have to PAY for it, somewhere.

You nailed it on the head, Jim.


I used to be a tascam fan, owning a few DA-78s, DA-88s, etc. I still wish I didn't get rid of them all. They were that good.

I followed tascam with the new generation. Pro-sumer at best. The MX-2424 was a pro machine, but too bad the support disappeared.

I own alesis boxes, and they are great for small things. They are crap for pro mobile recording. Why? See a few other threads at why I think the lack of a proper remote, small arming buttons and the inability to sync using ANY of the standard sync methods is crap from the perspective of a remote.

And then I went to RADAR. Spent serious cash, but I've had serious support.
1) It acts like a recorder
2) It sounds fantastic. The engineering AROUND those "off-the-shelf" converters is where the importance is.
3) Its rock solid. I can depend on it to do its job so I can focus on mine.

When I'm onsite, that final statement is worth a lot to me...because I've got other things to think about.

So what the diff between RADAR and the X48?
Let me see....
1) Its here now
2) Its proven to do exactly what it says it will do and nothing more
3) The company who built it will have have stood behind it.
4) Once again it bears repeating: It sounds GREAT.


So how much is that worth to you?

[T.RayBullard]

As long as the box is solid(recording-wise), and one is using outboard converters and preamps, I personally dont see the point of dropping 20,000 on a bit bucket/trash can/storage unit

If I were to use the boxes conversion/analog ins/etc I could see spending a lot more, but isnt it just a data dump?

The box will sound as fantastic as the conversion and pres that I throw in front of it, whether alesis, radar, otari, nagra, whatever...

I like Genex because of the DSD option, but I see nothing wrong with the Alesis as a data storage unit. Id rather spend more money on mics and pres and converters and save on the digital dump.

[zakco]

I've never used the Alesis or the Tascam so I can't comment on the sound of either one. I have however owned several other products from both companies and I have nothing good to say about the service and support from them.

I'm currently using a RADAR as my location rig and as a front end to Cubendo in the studio. I've got nothing but great things to say about RADAR as a product and iZcorp as a company. The radar sounds fantastic and I've NEVER been so confident with my tools in a high-pressure situation. It's a great feeling working with such a solid system. Oh, did I mention that it sounds great?

Also on the service side, I bought my radar used on ebay and even though there wasn't a sale involved they spent a ton of time consulting with me both prior to the purchase and after. They actually encouraged me to buy a used unit and took the time to check the serial number and the service history for this particular box. Even then when I needed some accessories they put me in touch with Dave Sawchuk in Vancouver who found me a great deal on a used session controller and 48 channel meterbridge (bothe were still new in the box) , delivered them in person (a 2 hour ferry ride and an hours drive) and provided a great orientation session with my radar (that he didn't even sell me!).

Would tascam go the distance like that?

-Z-

[ClickTrackAudio]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

As long as the box is solid(recording-wise), and one is using outboard converters and preamps, I personally dont see the point of dropping 20,000 on a bit bucket/trash can/storage unit

Use one and then you'll see.

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

If I were to use the boxes conversion/analog ins/etc I could see spending a lot more, but isnt it just a data dump?

Nope. If you notice, most people who use the RADAR go out of their way to use the A/Ds.

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

The box will sound as fantastic as the conversion and pres that I throw in front of it, whether alesis, radar, otari, nagra, whatever...

So by the time you buy that many channels of quality A/D, aren't you already getting into a high price bracket? As I said before...try one and you'll see. There is a difference.

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

I like Genex because of the DSD option, but I see nothing wrong with the Alesis as a data storage unit. Id rather spend more money on mics and pres and converters and save on the digital dump.

The alesis can do fine as a data storage unit...I have no qualms with that...in fact I have told others in other threads that as a single stand-alone unit it'd be absolutely fine. Where I have a problem with it is when someone tries to compare it to a RADAR for a pro application.

PRO:
Being able to synchronize to the outside world as a master or slave

NOT PRO:
Insisting on using your own proprietary sync methods that need external boxes to translate your sync method to all other standards.

PRO:
Being able to chase what ever sync that comes in

NOT PRO:
Running in a "freewheel" only mode and then insisting that the user enter offsets to align the timing differences.

PRO:
Having a proper remote control for the unit

NOT PRO:
Jerry-rigging an older product intended for a phased out machine to kind of work...only if you don't use functions x, y and z.

PRO:
Having a easy-to-operate, intuitive control

NOT PRO:
Miniscule arming buttons that are non-tactile and too damn small for hands larger than a four-year-old pygmy.

PRO:
Having service and sales people who will stand behind their product regardless of how much you've bought from them or who'll go the extra mile when you have a problem after you've dropped some coin

NOT PRO:
Discontinuing a product after a year or two and saying "Check online or RTFM. We know nothing about something we convinced you to buy"

PRO:
Knowing your business model and sticking to it.

NOT PRO:
Hanging out by the bankrupcy office saying "brother..can you spare a dime" while simultaneously releasing 1 potentially useable product amidst a tonne of DJ crapola.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not a shill for RADAR. I only exhalt them simply because they have singly been one of my better decisions for my business. They are rock solid and sound great.

When (if) the Tascam becomes more than vapour ware, I'll definitely give them a try, and if they're solid, they'll find a home in my truck for certain duties. I used to rave this much about the DA-78s like I do about RADAR because they were workhorses. But make no bones about it, Tascam's abandonment of the pro market over the past 5-7 years makes me expect that after a year or two of the X48 being released, there won't be any more updates, and the usual support issues will start.

And as for Alesis, yes...great bit bucket. Good for some very specific applications. Just don't call it pro by any stretch of the imagination.


Yet another 2 cents brought to you by Click.

[Jim Williams]

Here's one for ya.

Pro = sounds great = Alesis HD24XR

Not pro = Pro Trolls 192 converter boxes and their D/A output cards.

In the end, it's the end result, not how you got there. Yep, some folks are somewhat lazy and want their boxes to automate, normalize and set up so you don't get your knees dirty.

If I don't sweat and get my knees dirty, I might as well wear a suit while mixing.

That's not what audio engineering is to me, not how I was taught.

I'm a blue collar mixer, not one of those pretty boys seen in the ads.

Kevin Mora at Central Studios in Maryland has sold off all the Pro Fools D/A cards in his 192 rack and is now using 4 Alesis HD24XR's for playback into his super modified 112 input Harrison MR-4 (with Uptown moving faders).

As he said, "no comparison". The HD's were set up in the B rooms, turns out they are now in the A room.

Guess some would still call that "not pro".

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by ClickTrackAudio

Nope. If you notice, most people who use the RADAR go out of their way to use the A/Ds.

As I already own several channels of HQ Conversion, I dont see myself needing the RADAR Conversion. For Mixing/mastering, I have Sequoia. I am a classical recording guy, so I never do anything processing-wise on the fly. I like to capture my material in a recorder, then upload it to my DAW..

So by the time you buy that many channels of quality A/D, aren't you already getting into a high price bracket? As I said before...try one and you'll see. There is a difference.

Im already in a price bracket, dont wish to add 20G more.
I guess if I didnt own the AD and wanted an all in one, itd be more desirable. Id consider anything other than a capture box ONLY a waste of money, since I dont use any of the more desired features in my work..

The alesis can do fine as a data storage unit...I have no qualms with that...in fact I have told others in other threads that as a single stand-alone unit it'd be absolutely fine. Where I have a problem with it is when someone tries to compare it to a RADAR for a pro application.

I know plenty of professionals that use the Alesis, so what defines professional???I dont personally care, I could buy the RADAR if I chose to do so(thanks to an Army 20g bonus! )..

I have no preference to either unit, and budget isnt so much an issue..just trying to decide what is best for me. The RADAR is on my consideration list, but I have a feeling itd be overkill.

Honestly, Genex is looking the best to me at the moment, because of DSD Capabilities.

I dont need a remote control either, I have fingers.

[Bat Head Sound]

I have heard both the Alesis unit and the Radar. In my opinion, the converters in the Radar are some of the best that I have ever heard. They capture so much detail and life. I was listening to some tracks that another engineer had recorded that sounded so deep and detailed that I felt like I was actually in the room with the musicians (it was a slow jazz piece with upright bass, piano, drums, and sax). I was completely blown away, and I've heard a lot of different converters. To me, the difference would be worth it.

[skygod]

Originally Posted by Sir Dingo

Bwahahahahahaaaaaaaa!!!!!

Oh yeah....hahahahahaaaa.....the same..........bwwwahahaaaaa......the Alesis Nyquist......hahahahahaaaaaaaaaa.......stop it.....ouch......hahahahahaaaaa......the pain.......oooowwwwww......

I'm sure iZ Corp sells the Nyquist cards to Alesis at a real bargain wholesale price.

Oh, and just one more thing....ummmmm.....

Are you mental?

Actually ... your picture reveals way too much picklesmooch -- you're the mental case lol OMG that's so funny I crack myself up sometimes *

Hey brainiac, before puttting foot in mouth next time - try the HD24XR and record 12 - 60 tracks @ 24/96, then compare the same tracks recorded on a Radar Nyquist @ 24/96. Hey, and that's not even with Jim Williams' Burr-Brown upgrade. I have and use these MDMs all the time on the road and in the studio for some years now. Not that they are NOT fraught with showstopper problems, there are workarounds, notwithstanding, have been the greatest bang for the buck since their inception.

Alesis not carrying the lifecycle ball forward is another issue, nevetheless, the best price point hardware device that happened to tracking hardware in a long long time. For all intensive purposes, 24/96 is most musical to most peoples ears esp mine, and thats why I work at that format for most everything and keep it AD-DA DA-AD analog all the way to the end from a set of MDM thru high end analog mixers and outboard back to another set of MDMs. Try it sometime. Your 3 inch pencil dick might actually grow 1 quarter of an inch longer.

The S-Nyquist, however, is another class from 44.1 all the way up to 192, because for MY MONEY and not yours asshole, those converters blow everybody else's on the planet away and that's why we buy those instead of lynx, and apogee, and mytex, and lavry blue, and whatever else exists out there for the very very critical stuff, and in that I mean symphonic scores for film and surround. Go back to sandbox 101 with the rest of the wannabee ******s and retreads

~skygod~

PS.

* Hey, and I didn't mean that in a bad way ...
BS ... Oh yes I did! ... fuggedaboudit

~skygod~

PPS.

Since all TASCAM haters and critical supreme court judges of the audio universe have ruled adversely against the X48, as usual, in your snobby worlds w/o having even tried it, I think I'm just gonna buy an X48 for the fun of it, just because I can
fuggouttahere -

~skygod~