Mics for a horn section on stage

[Beech]

Hi folks,

Looking for mic recommendations for a "rock & roll" style show. I think the line up will be four or five players ... trumpet, trombone and sax. In the studio I'd have Royer 122s and Akg 414s but live I don't want to mess with ribbons. Any advice would be appreciated.

Daire

[Dave Martin]

Originally Posted by Beech

Hi folks,

Looking for mic recommendations for a "rock & roll" style show. I think the line up will be four or five players ... trumpet, trombone and sax. In the studio I'd have Royer 122s and Akg 414s but live I don't want to mess with ribbons. Any advice would be appreciated.

Daire

Well, if you're really looking for a 'rock and roll' kinda thing, you might want clip-on mics so that the players can move around. But I'd do Sennheiser 421s or SM57's if te gig is that they play into mics on stands.

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by Beech

Hi folks,

Looking for mic recommendations for a "rock & roll" style show. I think the line up will be four or five players ... trumpet, trombone and sax. In the studio I'd have Royer 122s and Akg 414s but live I don't want to mess with ribbons. Any advice would be appreciated.

Daire

57's, 421's, or even better if you have (senn.) 441's and/or EV-RE20's: all of these are fine for "live" applications, but are a bit more than the reg. live fare. The standard clip-ons (AKG 418/419's) are OK, but I find them to be too shrill for bone and trumpet, but OK for sax. Sometimes the bone-tone can rip a hole thru your ear with those little guys, and the trumpet - it's like trying to scratch that itch deep inside your eardrum...

I'd go with 57's or 421's as the standard choice, and it also allows the players to use some "mic-technique", if they know what that is.

best with it!

[Beech]

Sorry, I forgot to mention that it is a recording. So it's down to 57s, RE20 or 421s. I've just discovered it's two saxes, a trumpet and a bone. Since I'm not a big fan of any shrillness maybe the 421 should be dropped from the list.

If they want to move around I've got some tiny DPA4060s which might be worth a try.

[fifthcircle]

If you could find some 441's or 409's, you could certainly do well with those. I also tend to use Beyer M88's for a lot of the live stuff that I do. All of these are pretty robust, can handle the SPL's and abuse of a live show and sound good...


--Ben

[Dave Martin]

Originally Posted by Beech

Sorry, I forgot to mention that it is a recording. So it's down to 57s, RE20 or 421s. I've just discovered it's two saxes, a trumpet and a bone. Since I'm not a big fan of any shrillness maybe the 421 should be dropped from the list.

Re-read the post - 421's aren't shrill.

[Duffster]

421´s, RE20, and I have found that the SM58 works great for alto or tenor sax.

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by Beech

Sorry, I forgot to mention that it is a recording. So it's down to 57s, RE20 or 421s. I've just discovered it's two saxes, a trumpet and a bone. Since I'm not a big fan of any shrillness maybe the 421 should be dropped from the list.

If they want to move around I've got some tiny DPA4060s which might be worth a try.

FWIW,

I do like the 4060's, and they are very nice for compact mics, but the bleed factor might be very high as they're omni's, and I expect a lot of leakage entering the picture, esp. if the stage level is loud...

proceed with caution if low bleed is preferred...

[Beech]

Thanks for all your contibutions! Sorry if I insinuated that the 421 was shrill but my one and only certainly appears bright. Mind you I did get it secondhand ... someday I'd love to get another to compare the old with the new.

I've an RE20 on the way so I think I'll pick between it and a 57. Nobody dared recommend a ribbon which I suppose is fair enough since spill could be an issue. Still it is a Sixties show that I'm doing it t would be nice to get something of that old fat sound especially if the trumpet goes up in register.

[Dave Martin]

Originally Posted by Beech

Still it is a Sixties show that I'm doing it t would be nice to get something of that old fat sound especially if the trumpet goes up in register.

You know, a lot of the old school R&B trumpet players around here have an SM57 with some sort of round plexiglass shield around it. Seems to work great in a live situation.

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by Dave Martin

You know, a lot of the old school R&B trumpet players around here have an SM57 with some sort of round plexiglass shield around it. Seems to work great in a live situation.

The plexi is so that they can hear themselves back. When things get loud and you are playing a brass instrument, it is easy to feel like you're the only one on stage. With this, you at least get some feedback on what is happening when you blow...

--Ben

[Jim vanBergen]

The Senn 504 (& 604) is a compact dynamic with the element from the 421, and sounds VERY impressive compared to how it looks. Ditto the Senn 409/609, which is often used to mic guitar cabinets, it's a large diaphragm dynamic and similar to the RE20 but less low end and easier to position. Beyer M88 and M69 are two of my old standbys that are much better than 57s. Best sound on a sax for me has always been Neumann 89, 67 or 170, but I settle for an M88 live often if I don't have something nicer available. But since you have the Royer, I'd use that on sax unless it is a bar atmosphere.

JvB

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

The Senn 504 (& 604) is a compact dynamic with the element from the 421, and sounds VERY impressive compared to how it looks. Ditto the Senn 409/609, which is often used to mic guitar cabinets, it's a large diaphragm dynamic and similar to the RE20 but less low end and easier to position. Beyer M88 and M69 are two of my old standbys that are much better than 57s. snip...
JvB

I'm very interested in hearing these - never heard any of the beyer's (aside from ribbons like the 160/260/500 etc.,, and the odd dynamic vocal mic) or Senn's other dynamics, but I have heard very good things about them - might be worth an audition. I'd be interested in the beyer m88, as a lot of folk swear by it for gtr cab and horns, not to mention snare...

again, best with it.

[fifthcircle]

The M88 is a great kick drum mic, too, but after you use it there, it will never be quite the same and as usable for anything else...

--Ben

[Remoteness]

If I had to pick one mic for all horns it would be a Sennheiser MD441. They work perfectly on all instruments -- pets, bones, all saxes. No phantom needed and the isolation from other leakage is awesome. MD409s sound nice on bones and baritone sax. And the other cool thing about the MD441 is... Sennheiser still makes real ones. That's why they cost so much. IMO, the MD421 (mark II) is a toy and does not sound anything like a real (the original) MD421.

SM58s (on trumpets and saxes), SM57s, MD421s, RE20s, M88s are cool but, (IMO) across the board (one mic for all) the MD441 blows them away.

If there's a bigger budget U67s, U87s, TLM170s & TLM103s are pretty cool mics. I like the TLM170s on pets and saxes. the TLM103s sound nice on bones.

But Daire, the DPA4060s you purchased late last year would be awesome for complete mobility on this gig. Do you have the special clips for them yet?

Daire, the newer MD421s do sound pretty shrill compared to a real one. Never use the new version with an old one if you're looking for a similar response. I own 12 MD421s, I purchased a mark II -- I've been using it as my talkback mic ever since.

[Beech]

The great Steve Remote has returned! Thanks for chiming in Steve. Yes I have the DPA 4060 and have just received a pack of the clips so it's just a matter of interfacing with the stage crew as to how to get them to connect to the Shure beltpacks. At least one of the saxes will have to "throw shapes" as it is a Rock & Roll show. As soon as a sax player shows up here at the studio I will be doing some tests with the DPAs. I just hope the xlr connections work better on this side of the Atlantic!

I still have an idea that it would be good to try maybe a group mic. I remember seeing a horn section in Branson in a band called the Horn Dogs. Man were they great, and they all appeared to play around the one mic but I guess that might be hard for a bari player.

[Beech]

I'm resurrecting this thread because I've just been told that most probably all the players will need to move. Just to refresh your collective memories, it's two trumpets, a bari and a tenor sax. I have the clip on DPA 4060s but they are omni so I'd like to find one other option just in case they dont work. I've been checking out various mics but the best I can find in my locker is the Sennheiser E504. Problem is it's designed to clip on to drum rims. But it does screw off its clip so does anyone know if their is an alternative mount available?

Thanks

[7rojo7]

504 or 604, My 604s all work on regular mic stands, you may need an adapter for the size.
Beyer 160 or 260 or an SM7 will work on TPT, I have a JV74 with a cardboard adapter that I use for a Subdued top, RE20; 441; SM7 or the rare Stedman N90 on BONE, look for some handheld non hypercardiod condensors for saxes. I have an ATM825 stereo mic that works great for top and bottom sax (name your variety) in a onepoint compact package.

[Beech]

Sorry 7rojo7, I need to mount the mics on the instruments because the will be moving about on stage as rock'n roll dudes tended to do!

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by Beech

I'm resurrecting this thread because I've just been told that most probably all the players will need to move. Just to refresh your collective memories, it's two trumpets, a bari and a tenor sax. I have the clip on DPA 4060s but they are omni so I'd like to find one other option just in case they dont work. I've been checking out various mics but the best I can find in my locker is the Sennheiser E504. Problem is it's designed to clip on to drum rims. But it does screw off its clip so does anyone know if their is an alternative mount available?

Thanks

Well,

I think if you had to have clip-ons, I'd do either those 4060/61's, or possibly try countryman isomax, as they have cardiod/hyper-card caps: or there's another one - can't remember their name - they have the small clip ons on a mount back from the instr.'s bell, they claim better sound, but I've never tried them

hope this helps...

best with it,

[Remoteness]

I'm with Jay on this one.

[joaquin]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

IMO, the MD421 (mark II) is a toy and does not sound anything like a real (the original) MD421.

Hi Steve and everybody else. sorry to disrupt the thread focus, but I'd like to know a bit more about this statement. I just bought 3 MD421mkII, wich I still have not put quite to the test, in search for a standar historical transducer at Drum recording...I did use one to record clean electric guitar before and found it to have a balanced and clear response...not shrill at all!? Since I do not have immediate acces to any of the original 421 I'd like more feedback on the subject...Thanks.

PS. I had good results with a 57 recording trumpet...not that my input will be very usefull in the actual situation...

[Jim vanBergen]

I love the idea of clipping 4060 lavs to the instruments. Yes, there will be bleed. But you're gonna get great tone and it will be even among brass instruments. If you can keep the monitor level low, I'd try them first.

In my experience, "Rock and Roll" style is always mic stands, unless the players bring their own RF mics. So I stand by the Beyer/Senn/RE-20 mics as excellent choices. Iin the studio I love a U47FET and a 77 ribbon on trumpet, but live....you gotta go with individual mics and get a little isolation if you can.

In an aside on the 421 Mk1 vs Mk2, I agree with Steve that recent versions of the Mk2 don't seem to have the weight the originals do...I have seen several come back from repair by Senn USA with "new" capsules and the tone is....different.... to say the least. Anyway I drifted back to RE-20/27s and Beyer M69/M88s, but have recently been using OLD and great sounding Mk1 421s again. YMMV.....
JvB

[Beech]

It's going to be the 4060s with 504s on stands for backup. I just got the DPA rubber mounts which shoud work well with the brass and be fairly unuptusive. Monitor level sound be reasonably quiet because most will be on "in ears"

Thanks to all you folks for contributing to this discussion.

DW