Sax Mic'ing?

[deadonarrival]

Anyone got some good ways on getting a real fat sounding sax? The song is gonna be a sort of funky jazz piece. The gear I have is for sure not the greatest...two AT MB4k (SDCs), a SM57, and a PG48. Im running those through a Yamaha MG16/4 into a M-audio USB audiophile and then finally into Adobe Audition. Any suggestions on mic position, compressor settings, eq, reverb settings, ect...would be extremely helpful. Thanks.

[tINY]

For a fat sax, you brobably want a little bit of a good room in the recording. Mic a little closer to the bell than normal. Play with positions.

AND: make sure that the saxist has a selection of different reeds - don't be afraid to try several of them.



-tINY

[honest.abe]

I get my best sax sounds using a Sennheiser MD-421 shoved right down the gullet of the Sax along with two Blue Baby Bottles about three feet away in a H pattern. That gives the richest fattest sound I've heard from a sax.

Also, to make your sound even chunkier, I'd run the MD-421 through a decent tube pre.

- Abe

[blackcatdigi]

Tracked some brass on the last project I worked on. Pic, soprano and bari's.

I used an MC012 and board pre with no compression. Mic placement was 5 or 6 feet away from the player, mic up around 6 or 7' high, pointing down at sax, and recorded out in the big live room...

Sounded like someone playing a sax in a big room. Who woulda thunk? I used some hall verb and some 1/8 or 1/4 note delays (to tuck it further back behind the vocal), and a little La3a to smooth at mix. Sounded great. Very 'real' and organic.

YMMV, but close miking brass instruments always sounds really harsh to me.

[theblue1]

One thing that's important to remember is that the sound of a sax doesn't only come out the bell. I've seen multiple mic'ings with a mic near the bell and then another (almost always a condenser or ribbon) out in front and up to pick up sound from the tone and register holes. (There's a lengthy discussion of sax acoustics here.)

[fifthcircle]

Yes... Thank you for saying that... As a woodwind player, there is one thing I detest- and that is the sound of an instrument with a mic up the bell. Ugh... Get the mic a couple feet out and you'll get a much bigger sound. Use a big sounding mic and you'll get a big sounding sax. My personal favorites are ribbons (usually a Royer 122, but I've had great luck with Beyer 160s, Coles 4038's, RCA 77's, and other similar mics) and the Neumann UM57 tube mic (or other similar vintage tubes). Position the mic a couple feet out and aim towards the top of the instrument for a bright sound and between the bell and the body for a darker sound...

One mic can get you all you need if you put it in the right place. Unfortunately, none of the mics in the original poster's post will get you a particularly "fat" sound.

--Ben

[tINY]

But, aiming a mic at the bell or putting one closer to the bell will accentuate the lower forments - hence the "fat" sound requested. Different reeds will make a huge difference too - too thick a reed will often give a thin sound.




-tINY

[Twisted-Shake]

^ reeds are a personal preference, and I wouldn't suggest changing what the player is comfortable with. As an engineer you should be trying to record the player, not re-engineer his sound. If you are the band leader and you don't like the way someone plays, don't hire them.

If I was this guy, and I practically am based on his gear, I'd just use the SM57. Mic the sax 4-8 inches away between the bell and the tone holes angled down, use compression to even out the dynamics/attacks, and apply reverb to taste. I tend to prefer a darker sounding reverb like the Ren Verb from Waves or something. Need a brighter sound give the eq a nudge over/around 1.2KHZ.

Bottom line, experiment, I think you'll be surprised with what you can get out of the 57.

[De chromium cob]

Originally Posted by Twisted-Shake

^

Bottom line, experiment, I think you'll be surprised with what you can get out of the 57.

I absolutly hate the SM57 on sax. Great all around mic for tons of other stuff but sax is not one of them.

[theblue1]

Somebody told me the story once of walking into a session and seeing a second carefully positioning a mic at the far end of a flute...

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by tINY

But, aiming a mic at the bell or putting one closer to the bell will accentuate the lower forments - hence the "fat" sound requested. Different reeds will make a huge difference too - too thick a reed will often give a thin sound.




-tINY

There's probably something to be said for that. But I'd say that's more a 'ballzy' sound (pardon) than a fat sound. When I think of a fat sax, I think of guys like Stan Getz (or is that a farty sound [sorry again on the terminology]) and, Stan, for sure usually had a lot of air-- and that means up over the front of the sax.

The reed comment is dead on, even if I wouldn't want to try to pry a player's favorite reed away from him to change it.

But if you want a certain sound on your record, the most straightforward, sensible way to get it is to find an instrumentalist and instrument that sound the way you want. There's only so much "fixing" you can do in the mix or anywhere else in the chain. (And I'll spare us all the 'polishing' metaphor, thanks.)

[tINY]

I probably wouldn't push too hard, but I would absoulutely ask a player about changing reeds. After all, if you are after a certain sound for a track then do what you have to to get it. Any true musician shouldn't have an issue with this: He'll play whatever he is able to. The goal is the music.

Primadonna "stars" may have other sensibilities....



-tINY

[deadonarrival]

Thanks for all the replies! I don't see any changes in the budget anytime soon (I would be classified as the low end of the low end), so my 57 will have to do. I think I'll suggest changing a reed as one of you pointed out...but not make a big deal about it if he decides not to. I'll deffinetly mess around with the compression and reverb and such. Thanks again for the suggestions.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by tINY

I probably wouldn't push too hard, but I would absoulutely ask a player about changing reeds. After all, if you are after a certain sound for a track then do what you have to to get it. Any true musician shouldn't have an issue with this: He'll play whatever he is able to. The goal is the music.

Primadonna "stars" may have other sensibilities....



-tINY

I certainly wouldn't be afraid to ask him his thoughts on it.

And if you also play the instrument in question, you can engage in dialog on that level.

But, myself, as a guitar player, after a certain point, I think I'd be wondering why the guy telling me how to play my instrument wasn't just playing it himself. (And, in my case, he'd probably be better off! )

But the annals of recording history are filled with anecdotes about producers and (yes even occasionally) engineers asking session musicians to do things that either make no sense or are impossible. (I feel like I should stick a link to "stupid producer tricks" here).

[Twisted-Shake]

I think most of you understand what I was getting at, which is basically that unless you are a saxophone player, and understand the whole setup ligature/mouthpiece/horn/embouchure etc. stepping up and telling the horn player to change his sound by changing reeds is extremely naïve and could likely create more problems. Did you know that by changing reeds you could be creating tuning problems and changing the playable range of the horn? Tone changes can be easily adjusted just by playing differently ie. opening up the throat, using the buzz tongue technique, changing the embouchure, playing super loud....


Any good horn player is going to spend plenty of time auditioning reeds before he goes to a session. If the horn player is a seasoned vet. and does studio stuff often, he will most likely carry a variety of not only reeds, but mouthpieces and probably even horns. This player will do whatever it takes to get the take. But, like I said before, if you are a band leader; you've got to pick the musician thats right for the band. You're not going to get a Maceo Parker sound out of someone who plays like Lee Konitz.

That said, if you want to be the producer and make suggestions to the sound and style a guy is playing, don't talk about reeds unless you are a sax player, instead talk about influences. Say, I'd like that smooth Getz tone, or I want that raspy but sweet Archie Shepp sound.....or I want you honking your horn like that drunk fool on the corner. That is going to get you a lot further than talking out of your ass about reeds IMHO.

[tINY]

You could always punt and say you don't like the tone for this piece. Then tell her what you don't like about it and where you want to go, sonicaly.

The point is that changing the reed/mouthpiece/embrochure is going to make bigger changes in "fatness" than mic technique and processing.

Dialog is a good thing. Unless she is paying you, don't work with anyone who gets so easily offended (even if she's paying, you may reconsider...). But, you have to have an idea where you want to go.

The question was how to get a "fat" sax sound, not how to capture a fat sax player's sound.



-tINY

[Littlefoot]

Originally Posted by De chromium cob

I absolutly hate the SM57 on sax. Great all around mic for tons of other stuff but sax is not one of them.

Don't lynch me, I'm new to this site, but I must agree...I can't stand the way the SM57 sounds on a sax!!! Personally, I prefer a Beta 58 pointed just above the bell and about a foot away for Alto Sax. When I switch to Tenor or Soprano I just leave the mic where it is...Tenor will sound great but the Soprano tends to be a little thin without the lower register overtones coming through as well. Of course, I'm usually playing in a live setting and not in a studio, so that might account for the Beta 58 sounding better. And since I'm usually on the performing end and not the engineering end I may need some schooling.

As far as getting that "fat" sound, that is going to come from the saxophonist, not the mic'ing! I've been playing professionally for 25+ years and can honestly say the more relaxed I am as a player, the fatter the sound I get and there is no amount of mic'ing or engineering that will make me sound better. JMHO...and maybe a tiny bit of experience

[avebr]

Originally Posted by honest.abe

I get my best sax sounds using a Sennheiser MD-421 shoved right down the gullet of the Sax along with two Blue Baby Bottles about three feet away in a H pattern. That gives the richest fattest sound I've heard from a sax.
Also, to make your sound even chunkier, I'd run the MD-421 through a decent tube pre.

+1 on 421, although I've done it in my experiences with 441 - which is flater and more condenser-like.

For sax/brass ensembles, Oktava MK-219 also sound gorgeous and can be a very cost-effective alternative - but you must match it with a great pre, which is def. not cheap!

Actually I believe that (sometimes) mics 'can' be cheap, but not the mic pres (always).


all the best,
ave.

[Remoteness]

I've used MD421s and MD441s on sax with good results.

I've recently used a TLM102 on Tenor sax on a live jazz date and I was very happy with the sound I captured.

[GZsound]

Well...being a sax player for the last 50 years and being cheap and wanting to get the best sound out of my horn on recordings since about 1965 there are a couple of things I have learned.

I cannot imagine any horn player agreeing to change reeds. You spend huge amounts of time finding what works best and you stick with it.

Second, for someone on a budget a great sax mic is, believe it or else, the CAD GXL 2400 LD mic. Under $70. It also will extend your mic locker and work on drums, guitar amps, even vocals..although it's a little too warm (or is it fuzzy) for my taste on vocals.

Get the horn back a couple of feet from the mic and have the mic slightly above the bell pointed down for a big more agressive sound, point it up for a smoother sound with more body and less bell.

For all my live playing since 1974 I have used a Beyer M260 (without the high pass filter of the newer mics) with great results, but in the studio I kept coming back to that cheap GXL 2400.

And the tone also depends on the sax. I have a 1965 MK VI selmer horn that sounds way different than my 1949 Selmer super balanced action.

[7rojo7]

Studio: JV74 null pointe at the bell, or Beyer M260 pointed at the body, U48, U87 M49 (alto) aroun d the bell
Live: ATM 825 vertical and mixed to mono
saxist makes it fat

[amanitas]

Not to be a dick and point out the obvious but

Saxophone is not a brass instrument!!!!

Even if it's made out of brass.

It's a woodwind.



If you make this mistake during the session, the horn players (esp. if they are any good) will regard you with more contempt and scorn than they already do. Because lets be honest, most professional horn players tend to be a pretty scornful and contemptuous lot, especially when it comes to the button pushers and knob twiddlers of the music world.

Also I don't know any sax players that wouldn't take serious offense to the suggestion of a reed change. I'd suggest changing sax players before asking them to change their reed - you may end up doing serious damage to the sax player's psyche and ultimately torpedo your session, especially if you are recording an amateur player who isn't entirely confident in their playing abilities (if the sax player is a professional you should be able to get around this by saying "give me a fatter sound please")

Keep in mind that a thicker reed might be a bigger/fatter sound, but it's also harder to play, and if your sax player can't give you a fat sound on the reed of their choosing, asking them to change the reed is probably going to result in a much worse performance if they actually have a different (size) reed on their person. Better to have takes with a thin sound than no usable takes with a fat sound IMO.

That said, I find LDC is the way to go for fat sax sounds - capsule a foot or two in front of where the bell is facing, maybe a bit further if it's a good room.

All the better if you can get some tubes in there in the mic and/or the pre.

Ideally get a U47. 67, 87 also sound great. C12/251 are nice too. For more budget oriented options, I like the TLM103 and Blue Blueberry on tenor sax. Super budget, honestly probably any cheap chinese LDC will work better than a 57.

If it's alto or soprano, and the player tends to be shrill at all, you might go for a ribbon mic instead. Fatheads are a good cheap option here, also Beyerdynamic M130/160/260 or also TG88 might be nice on the soprano (I love this mic for trumpet is it keeps the bite but loses the shrill, I assume it would do the same for soprano). Bari sax you could do worse than an RE20, although that's an instrument where a cheap Chinese condenser can result in chainsaw on aluminum siding.

[brooklynhero]

I've been using an RE20 about 2 inches away pointed straight into the bell of an alto sax. But then I'm recording in a small room and I'm trying to isolate. Works great for punchy solo's in a dense mix.

[badhorsie777]

I got fantastic results using a KSM32 close to the bell, maybe a foot out, just over the bell pointed at the hole. An AT4050 was up in the room, about 6 feet up (player was seated)... funny thing was, come mix time, we all agreed that the 4050, several feet back, gave the best tone. It was pointed straight at the bell from that height... surprised the heck out of me. It was much MUCH more natural sounding.

[Bannas]

Hey, I got quite a good result with my studio projects C1 + a Behringer B1. Both very cheap mics... and yes very entry level. You can listen + see the positioning here YouTube - Recording Alto Sax I don't know how to upload better quality audio... (was 44.1khz 16bit but came out ...well ... dodgy online! If anyone is interrested I can post a partial mp3 /wav...

[doorknocker]

Probably over you budget but the Coles 4038 smokes on sax, I guess it would be perfect for your needs. I don't record sax that often but the last time I did so was when I used the 4038 for the first time and the player was plain estatic saying he never heard his horn sound like that before in the sense that it was the sound he 'heard' himself. I have the same feeling when recording guitar combos with the 4038, to me it's like being in the room with the sound.

Another thing: When faced with recording a less familiar instrument I will always get the players opinion. Remember that the player is always 'behind' the instrument and hears himself differently than what is being heard in the room and/or recording. Of course this is true for most instruments but especially so for anything that involves breathing to produce the sound - of course this includes vocals and it's one reason that so many people, even really good singers sometimes, have trouble 'accepting' their own voice.

[Bannas]

Here's an mp3 at 256kbps

[RMJAZZ]

Fat sax = U47......it's the standard, and has worked for decades, and is still the #1 mic used on my favorite sax player's records. My favorite player recently did a live record where he played into a TLM170.....not my fav mic but on him it really sounds great.

Remember the old saying "crap in, crap out".....it is true in this case. If the player/horn/mouthpiece etc...suck, the tone will suck. Pro Tools doesn't yet make a saxophone tone fixer upper........and never will. So what I am getting at is the phat sax sound comes from the player first. But you also need to be using the right gear.

Another point to keep in mind is that you need to have a wealth of sax tones in your brain as an engineer. You need to know what the possibilities are, and be able to hear what tone you want to get for that player. And make sure your expectations are realistic.

On the reed subject, I wouldn't ask them to change the type of reed they are using, or mouthpiece. BUT, I would ask them if they are playing on a good reed. Sometimes changing their reed can make a huge difference in the tone.
Just some opinions form a sax player/engineer.....

R

[taturana]

seriously... a good ribbon sideways pointing at the fingerholes... doesn't get much better than that... ok... two ribbons with the other pointing 90 degrees across the bell...

[roonsbane]

You guys should work with sax players that trust you a bit more. Usually sax players I have worked with have two or three reeds that they believe are working for them at the time. They have already weeded out the reeds that simply don't work or are unplayable. Then we record them or they just play for me and they have always asked me which I prefer, keeping in mind the goal of the tone we are all looking for. This goes exponentially for classical sax players since they are supper freaks about their tones. They particularly never want to hear their keys slapping at all. After hearing something back it is completely reasonable to talk about wanting this kind of tone or that kind of tone and asking if one of the reeds in particular they are working with would fill that need. Of course mics and mic techniques are also on the table. If it's their recording of course they will make the final choices.
Best!
Cameron