Sax Mic'ing?

[TimOBrienFlorida]

Personally I like to use a MD-421 on my tenor (a standard for 40+ years)
For the altos and sops you might want to start with a good vocal LDC.

I've been playing around with mid-side recording and getting great results, too.

Remember that the sound comes from the ENTIRE horn not just the bell and mic placement and distance is everything; don't just jam the mic down the bell.
I like to start out a foot or two up and out pointed at the center of the horn.
Sometimes rotating the mic around to the right side of the player helps get rid of key clacks but you are going to have to experiment with any player.

Its also very common to put a second LDC about 6ft away and blend the two mics.
On sopranos its common to mic the bell AND the side of the horn.

[Remoteness]

This week we're recording live performances of Donald Harrison (Alto Sax) with Ron Carter and Billy Cobham at the Blue Note.

The club has a RE20 for Donald.
Jack O'Hara the club's audio engineer (for these dates) loves the sound he's getting with the RE20.

We have a M149 on him for the capture.
Pretty much the same set-up we did 6 years ago with them.

[eman]

I have used the CV-12 on a tenor a few feet back pointing down a little toward the bell, into a JDK pre with the gobo behind him and the sound was incredible. We switched to the soprano and ended up using the same combo with stunning results.

[eman]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

This week we're recording live performances of Donald Harrison (Alto Sax) with Ron Carter and Billy Cobham at the Blue Note.

How cool is that! I love Ron Carter, especially with Hubert Laws on "rite of spring" CTI.

Would love to hear it when its released.

[AndyPanda]

As a sax player with 40+ years experience ... let me chime in on the reed question.

Sax reeds are all different - no two are alike and each time you pick up even the same reed, it will be different than it was last time - and that is just part of being a sax player - knowing that even a reed that was perfect an hour earlier may suddenly stop working due to the temp, humidity or who knows what. So leave that up to the sax player - he knows whether his reed is resonding well or not.

But there are also different types of reeds and the different types of reeds have different characters (completely different from the question of whether it is working/responding well or not). If I am playing with a loud rock band and have to really blast in order to be heard - I will use a synthetic or plastic coated reed that has more edge and bite. But if I'm playing an intimate ballad or jazz piece I'll probably use a different type of reed entirely and maybe a different mouthpiece too.

Tom Scott used to use a special mouthpiece (Strathon) with a moving baffle so he could adjust the mouthpiece between a bright and edgy tone to a round and mellow sound - he was on just about every hit song in the 70's and used the same mouthpiece but adjusted for what the material called for. You can also do a lot of this just with your playing technique but still there is a lot of difference between types of mouthpieces and types of reeds (as well as the difference between two reeds of the same type that just can't be helped).

So I not only wouldn't be offended by being asked to try a different mouthpiece of reed type to get a different sound - I usually offer to try 3-4 different mouthpiece/reed setups and let them choose which tone fits the material the best. If they don't have a preference, then I just use what I think will fit best or what makes me most comfortable while playing that material.

[BruceB]

As a pro sax player and recording/live sound engineer among the others here, I use the same brand and model of reed pretty much all the time. However, even within the same box of new reeds, they sound different. They are bamboo manufactured by nature with all different cell/grain structure, some of which I can adjust. If someone asked me to change a reed for a different sound, I would not be offended at all. I love to play a fat,smoky sound, and sometimes something edgier is more appropriate like playing section work with brass.

Also, the same mic I use for live does not necessarily work in the studio and vice versa. I love the MD421 and Earthworks sr20 live- depending on the PA system and room. I never use them (421 and sr20)in the studio, however my curiosity is piqued by the suggestion of a 421 into a tube pre- got a pendulum MDP-1 here that is wonderful. Earthworks mic is too bright and thin in the studio but stellar live- in a good room and if recording live. Cuts through with good nuance, really easy to work that mic for dynamics. In the studio, I usually use my U87 or a charter oak 538. Akg 451 or C414 for soprano (my other horn is usually a Selmer tenor- loves the LDC's).

Hope this helps...

[little erich]

I really like the AKG D112 on sax.

[GZsound]

I also used a mic live that didn't work well in studio work.

I played live into a Beyer M260 that I bought in 1974 after using SM57's for years before that. In the studio it has always been a LD mic for the best sound.

As to reeds, I have never been able to play consistantly with a wood reed, except the Rico Plasticover reeds which I used for a few years. I always used synthetic reeds going back to Fibercane reeds. For the last ten years or so I have been using Bari reeds.

For me, a synthetic reed gives consistancy from reed to reed and lasts quite a bit longer than wood reeds.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by tINY

I probably wouldn't push too hard, but I would absoulutely ask a player about changing reeds. After all, if you are after a certain sound for a track then do what you have to to get it. Any true musician shouldn't have an issue with this: He'll play whatever he is able to. The goal is the music.

Primadonna "stars" may have other sensibilities....



-tINY

No professional producer would ever ask a professional saxophone player to change a reed or mouthpiece. That's not done. If a producer ever suggested that to me, I would assume he's an idiot and I'd be correct.

Record a saxophone with a sdc, ldc, ribbon or dynamic mic. If you want a fat sound, hire a saxophone player with a fat sound.

My preference is a tube mic and tube pre. Any good mic and pre will do.

Remember, don't make any equipment suggestions to the saxophonist. He'll just think you're a schmuck.

[Remoteness]

I've always found the position of the mic and the room you're capturing the horn in is much more important than which mic or preamp you're using...

But, that's just me; YMMV, but always consider the cost of the fuel;-)

[JoeDeF]

Originally Posted by theblue1

One thing that's important to remember is that the sound of a sax doesn't only come out the bell.

Originally Posted by doorknocker

Remember that the player is always 'behind' the instrument and hears himself differently than what is being heard in the room and/or recording. Of course this is true for most instruments but especially so for anything that involves breathing to produce the sound - of course this includes vocals and it's one reason that so many people, even really good singers sometimes, have trouble 'accepting' their own voice.

Watch sax players warm up. Often what I see is the player finding a blank wall or better yet a corner and playing into the corner (and that's also what I do as a sax player in that situation, and sometimes while practicing as well). All of those complex saxophone sound radiation patterns (which change dramatically from note to note, as does waveform asymmetry) go to the corner and come back to the player's ears. The player thinks:

"Yes! That's what I sound like!"

So, two unconventional techniques you can try that I have had success with are:

1) Have the player face a wall or corner. Put an extended boom stand behind the player and aim the mic down over the player/s head pointing down at a chest-high spot on the wall or corner directly in front of the player.

2) Have the player face a wall. Put the mic in front of the player but facing the wall (the player is playing into the null of the cardiod pattern) Put the grille of the mic as close to the wall as you can get it without it touching. You are essentially creating a boundary (pressure zone) microphone which will pick up many of those varied sound radiations. I usually do this kind of thing with an actual PZM mic, but since you don't have one, I am suggesting using what you have to achieve more or less the same technique.

Either of these techniques can yield a smooth, even, and complex sound that I personally often hear as "fat." They are a little unorthodox, but, hey, they don't cost anything to try except a little time (and they're both very quick to set up), so if you are not happy with the results you are getting with conventional techniques, give them a try.

Joe

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

I've always found the position of the mic and the room you're capturing the horn in is much more important than which mic or preamp you're using...

But, that's just me; YMMV, but always consider the cost of the fuel;-)

True. You'll get a better sax recording, even with a bad mic & pre, if you mic the actual saxophone. You can have a vintage U47 and new Manley mic pre, but if you mic the light-switch, the saxophone will sound thin and distant.

[RobAnderson]

It's never crossed my mind to ask a sax player to change reeds. I don't think I ever would.

In general, mic's and preamps aside, I have found that if you are looking for a particular sort of sound, it pays to communicate this to the musician, and let them figure it out. The beauty of recording real musicians (especially good ones) playing on real instruments is the fact that they can often extract the most amazing range of colors and expressiveness right from their instruments.

Of course it helps to get the mic in the right spot...

FWIW, for tenors and altos, I have had great luck with U87's, 421's, C414's, Schoeps (depends on the sax really) - if close mic'ed, it's about at the height of the players fingers, out in front a bit aiming at a 45-degree angle across the bell at the keys, trying to get that sweet spot where bell and hole sound come together in equal amounts.

Soprano's usually get 140's or KMS105's, sometimes double mic'ed, but not usually. I am probably in the minority in that I like the bell sound on a soprano sax.

[BruceB]

Thinking some more about this, in an ideal situation, the producer asks for a particular kind of sound, and it's up to ME to decide to change reed, mouthpiece, etc. to give what they want. Hopefully, I understand my self and my gear better than any one, and I know how to use it to get the desired result.

I see I'm basically echoing what Rob said just above ............

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by BruceB

Thinking some more about this, in an ideal situation, the producer asks for a particular kind of sound, and it's up to ME to decide to change reed, mouthpiece, etc. to give what they want. Hopefully, I understand my self and my gear better than any one, and I know how to use it to get the desired result.

I see I'm basically echoing what Rob said just above ............

An experienced producer or arranger will hire a saxophonist with the appropriate sound. Don't hire Dave Sanborn if you want Lou Donaldson.

If you're in the middle of nowhere and there's only one cat with a saxophone, you get what you get.