Choir - Live audience vs. not

[garysjo]

Let's assume a nice sounding space, live audience choir recording.

Do many of you go to a cardiod pair instead of omni or blumelein to get less crowd noise?

Thanks

[joelpatterson]

Omni's give you a more "relaxing" sense of the whole space. Hopefully the crowd is fairly quiet during the performance part?

What I always do anyway is ring the stage with mics, ending up with maybe four sets of stereo matched pairs, and then sort it all out later.

[garysjo]

Thanks Joel. Do uou ever get complaints regarding asthetics when using multi mic setups?

I've been using an SF12, which I love the sound of, but at times the audience noise is problematic. Lack of gain is an issue too. I use great river pres which have the gain, but I suppose I'd be better off with the SF24 ($$ouch!)

Ideally I'd set up an SF24 and a cardioid pair of Shoeps (ORTF) on the same stand....just not sure I can swallow the cost right now.

[NorseHorse]

CARDIOIDS!

Nothing like coughs and sneezes and candy wrappers and comments and old couples trying to whisper and creaking pews and whining babies and air ducts and climbing children and slamming doors to distract from a cool performance.

The problem is amplified on recordings because spatially, those noises are coming from the same place the music is (your speakers) and not behind you.

Sure, omnis get directional in higher frequencies, but not enough to satisfy me.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by garysjo

Do uou ever get complaints regarding asthetics when using multi mic setups?....

I used to be really hyper-self conscious about this very issue. I didn't want to impinge on anyone's enjoyment of the show in any way, and stay out of the way of the video guys, and you know what? After a time or two of not getting the absolutely best capture I thought I should have, I started bringing it up with the music directors. Universally, they encouraged me to do whatever I thought was best, whatever it took-- kind of looking at me like 'what, are you stupid?'

Turned out, they don't really give a good God damn, surely not compared to having a great CD of their show. Their call.

[garysjo]

Thanks Joel...Thanks Norse!

Good advise from both

[Studiodawg]

I use cardioids either ORTF or coincident and use Samplitude's spectral cleaning capability for specific crowd noise incidents.thumbsup

[sonare]

One thing to understand-- cardioids do not install an invisible wall between mics and audience that keeps out the noises-- they are still there but at a lower level. Unless you are recording a high school choir the audience will not likely have babies and the rest. And you will get HVAC even with hypercardioids.

The big problem is how cardioids sound. You like the sound of the SF12-- so you probably will not like a cardioid condenser. The only ones I would consider for choral are TLM193/170. Aside from those I do not know of a cardioid that will not mortally damage the choral sound with coloration. And never forget that with classical the room is part of the musical package-- don't eliminate it.

Regarding spectral cleaning-- I have renoVATOR (and the Sequoia Magix version) and while it can sometimes save the day, the most common sound (coughs) often leave artifacts. The Noisefree will take care of moderate HVAC but again-- when trying to get rid of REALLY LOUD HVAC the transients will begin to exhibit side effects.

You mention you have an SF12-- nothing captures choral resonance like that mic. The SF24 will not really change your noise floor-- common misconception. It will eliminate the input impedance issues, however. You can diminish what noise you are getting from the audience by aiming the rear lobes UP. I will come in fairly close (10 feet from ensemble) and use Schoeps Mk2 flankers to keep the sides phase coherant. Keep the gain down at least 6dB.

Let us know how it all works!

Rich

[garysjo]

Originally Posted by sonare

One thing to understand-- cardioids do not install an invisible wall between mics and audience that keeps out the noises-- they are still there but at a lower level. Unless you are recording a high school choir the audience will not likely have babies and the rest. And you will get HVAC even with hypercardioids.

The big problem is how cardioids sound. You like the sound of the SF12-- so you probably will not like a cardioid condenser. The only ones I would consider for choral are TLM193/170. Aside from those I do not know of a cardioid that will not mortally damage the choral sound with coloration. And never forget that with classical the room is part of the musical package-- don't eliminate it.

Regarding spectral cleaning-- I have renoVATOR (and the Sequoia Magix version) and while it can sometimes save the day, the most common sound (coughs) often leave artifacts. The Noisefree will take care of moderate HVAC but again-- when trying to get rid of REALLY LOUD HVAC the transients will begin to exhibit side effects.

You mention you have an SF12-- nothing captures choral resonance like that mic. The SF24 will not really change your noise floor-- common misconception. It will eliminate the input impedance issues, however. You can diminish what noise you are getting from the audience by aiming the rear lobes UP. I will come in fairly close (10 feet from ensemble) and use Schoeps Mk2 flankers to keep the sides phase coherant. Keep the gain down at least 6dB.

Let us know how it all works!

Rich

Thanks Rich, great advise and yes I love the sound of the SF12. I thought SF24 to avoid having to crank up so much gain on my preamps. Perhaps trying the AEA pre will be quieter at high gain than my Great river NV's. Certainly a cheaper alternative to buying amn SF24. Do you use the SF12 and if so, with what pre-amp?

And on the cardioid issue, how about schoeps? I guess I will miss the room though...

[Corran]

Just a tiny bit of noise reduction and you won't even hear it again...

I use the free plugin pack from Reaper (specifically, "ReaFir") and it just kills any slight noise, either from the preamp or the mics.

As for coughing and stuff...I usually use ORTF so I am using cardioids but I use whatever will get the best recording, and deal with the coughing.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by garysjo

And on the cardioid issue, how about schoeps?

I have owned the Mk4, Mk41, Mk21, Mk5, Mk6 and all of them have some form of cardioid. The Mk21 is the only one without a HF rise, although I have heard reliable rumors of a Mk22 cardioid that is flat. Those two are the only ones I would put in front of a choral ensemble.

TRP is a GREAT partner for the SF12-- I used to own one, and sold it only because some gear I am beta testing did as well. Sold the TRP and bought some other goodies!

Rich

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by sonare

One thing to understand-- cardioids do not install an invisible wall between mics and audience that keeps out the noises-- they are still there but at a lower level.

And, if I may add, if you look at the 180° frequency response graph of any household cardioid, you will see that sound hitting the microphone from behind will suffer from a fair deal of coloration. This might make the odd rustling, shuffling, coughing, etc. from the audience sound unnatural and possibly more disturbing that with omnis, IMHO. Depends on the room, of course.

The only ones I would consider for choral are TLM193/170.

I have some old Beyer MC 723 cardioid SDCs that I really like as choir spots. They sound very soft and unobtrusive without being muffled.

Daniel

[mrsteaks]

Can I add anything to this discussion? Well, maybe. Like you, I have an SF12, and I use it almost exclusively on choir. Like Rich, I place it fairly close - 10 to 12 feet (right behind the conductor - well, actually OVER the conductor) and like Rich I use a pair of MK2 flankers (usually). The pre? A TRP. Terrific. Quiet, smooth - it really compliments the SF12. On the MK2s, I use either an ADL 600 or my new Seventh Circle C84s (which are very Milennia like, by the way). The room and the music make that choice for me.

Audience and HVAC noise? Part of the package, I'm afraid, when doing a live recording. Sometime the music director can get the HVAC turned off, but he can't turn off the audience noise. He can mitigate it some by pointing out to the audience that the performance is being recorded, and some directors do - which does quiet things a bit. However, there are always those audience members who wait for quiet passages so they can cough....

Hope I said something useful!

[garysjo]

Same positioning I use although I do not use the flanks. I'm usually doing HS school choirs or "honor choirs" so it's quick set up and go. I need to try the AEA pre

Thanks all!