Acoustic Piano choices.... help?!

[burst]

If you were exploring adding an acoustic piano to your studio, which factors would play into your decision?

I did a GS forums search, and after looking through about 9 pages worth of threads I found this link, which deals with my questions a bit... but I'm curious if any of you have other opinions or info.

We're looking at adding a piano and I'd love the input of my fellow Slutz on the matter... it will involve some studio remodeling, so we're looking at a decision that's a few months out, but when we're looking at these $$$ it's good to plan a few months ahead!

I'd like a "calling card" piano, one that would be a draw for jazz and classical players. Our staff and regular player/producers are pretty tied into the regional jazz scene, and there's not many options for a killer piano in a quality room throughout the area. The thought is that adding such a marquee item would pay for itself.

Your thoughts on :
used vs. new?
Steinway?
Baldwin?
Yamaha?
do I need a 9 footer?

Have any of you run into "there's no way I'll even touch a [brand X] piano!!", or "if you have a [brand Y] I'll make the trip, no matter what!" ???

Anything else to consider? Your thoughts on the matter would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[RKrizman]

As a general all-purpose piano I'd find a well maintained used Yamaha C-7. Maybe stay with a D series or later. Find one that's not too bright, has good depth of tone, and has some felt left on the hammers so they can be reshaped as the piano plays brighter. This should work great for jazz. For classical, you can go further. A 9 foot Yamaha plays beautifully. I'm guessing classical pianists will be a fussier bunch, so you might want to research that a bit. I'm not of that culture myself. Can you make enough money recording classical music to justify going all-out for a true artist's piano?

-R

[joeq]

Originally Posted by burst

Have any of you run into "there's no way I'll even touch a [brand X] piano!!", or "if you have a [brand Y] I'll make the trip, no matter what!" ???

I know a few classical players who would 'make the trip' if brand Y was a Bosendorfer.

[GYang]

I've found that GS3 with 24 bit Bosendorfer and Steinway D & B *gigs with little patience, on stand alone fast PC and digital transfer to DAW provides better final results in the mix than any of my attempts to record piano anytime in the studio or to record any other kind of piano simulation.
Of course I talk about pop and rock arrangements, not single piano or something like that, although even than it is at least very suitable.
All old crap like samplers, digital pianos etc. in my case were thrown out, indeed amazing possibilities with GS3.

GYang

No synth will attract real live jazz players. If so they could record at home or anywhere in the bedroom slippers... I think he wants a real piano.

I may be old school but I'm pretty sure he wants wood and steel...

<L>

[burst]

Of course I talk about pop and rock arrangements, not single piano or something like that, although even than it is at least very suitable.

I've actually heard the Ivory "softsynth" on a project of ours recently and was floored. That thing is insane and totally believable.

I wish I could get by as a studio booking jazz combos by telling them they should spend $xx/hour at our place while playing a laptop with a plug-in loaded up, but there's nothing like the real deal, as we all know.

[burst]

No synth will attract real live jazz players. If so they could record at home or anywhere in the bedroom slippers... I think he wants a real piano.

I may be old school but I'm pretty sure he wants wood and steel...

Just in case there's any doubt, that's absolutely correct.

We use plug-ins and software all the live-long-day... but not when we're trying to convince some jazz-head or classical art troupe that we know what desire, what they want for a sound and vibe, what they respect.

And there's just nothing like a real instrument moving breathable air, right?

[the1Hub]

I think its hard to find a piano that is a do all work horse. if room permits i would consider at looking to buy two used pianos if the budget is limited. i like the yamaha C7 for pop, country and jazz. but nothing knocks my socks off for classical like a good 9 ft steinway. my friend just bought a second hand steinway and was able to get the action rebuilt and the pedal system replaced for a resonable price. it plays and sounds like a brand new piano. total it cost him like a fourth of the price of a new one. and like a good martin guitar i think a piano gets better with age, as long as its cared for and properly humidified. bossendorfs are great too.

Originally Posted by burst

And there's just nothing like a real instrument moving breathable air, right?

Absolutely! Thanks for keeping the acoustic compliment alive.

Off topic, but I am a recording engineer who does a lot of live sound - and micing a piano is one of the joys of it all. I'm fond of telling musicians, you know, there are a couple million correct mic positions for piano - and I haven't tried them all yet!

and in the live situation, when they want a different piano sound, I always go up and move the mics - never need to touch EQ, and they smile and play on...

Talk about "touch sensitive!"

Lou

[gtrpaul]

I've had good luck with a rebuilt steinway B (late 1880's). I scored the piano from a divorcing pianist/rebuilder. it had been totally done including ivory ivories and was around 25k.I'd say you need at least a 7 foot piano. serious classical folks always like a 9 footer but in my view, a good 7 footer is a reasonable compromise for classical, jazz and pop. deals exist especially if you know a piano tech who can vouch for the basic integrity of the instrument. it is usual for a piano to be rebuilt including soundboard, strings, action, refinishing the case etc. A buddy who owns an excellent studio used a great Yamaha for years (mostly folk, jazz, pop but classical too)and picked up a steinway B. He's now getting ready to sell the Yamaha. The Yamaha was a bright piano and for jazz that's sometimes a good thing. I personally prefer a little more balance than I've heard in most yamahas.Pianos vary greatly from instrument to instrument but I've rarely heard complaints about a good steinway. A good tech will also have alot to do with the ultimate sound of a piano in voicing it, playing with the hammers and felts, adjusting the feel of the keyboard. If you do get a great instrument I suggest investing in a dampit system for humidity control. good luck.

[runamuck]

Unless you are planning to focus strictly on classical recordings I wouldnt suggest a Concert Grand (9' +-) piano. As far as Im concerned a recording studio doesnt need one whatever your focus.

If you want to focus primarily on pop recordings, a C7 would be the road most traveled. It will give you, in varying degrees based on the age and compactness of the hammer felt, that cutting, bright top end that many people like because it can cut through a dense arrangement. But personally I find them a little ragged in the treble and lacking warmth and depth in the bass

I would recommend a Steinway B but unless you are buying new, you have to make sure that the hammers still have a lot of good, uncompressed felt on them. Even a Steinway can sound harsh with old, oxidized hammer felt.
.
A Steinway B is big enough where theres plenty of low end, bright enough if pushed that it will work for most pop music, and intimate enough to convey real emotion, both in classical and jazz.
Be prepared to spend some money: $15 - 20,OOO used , maybe a bit less. Dont buy anything without a trusted pianist with good ears and taste first playing it for awhile.

And should you find something in good shape but needing new felt and action regulation, have a reputable Guild technician check it out and give you an estimate first. It can be very, very expensive. I know. I used to make a living doing it.

Good luck,

Jim

.

[Telecastr]

we use a Yamaha C7 and sounds great.

[raal]

for pop/rock etc., the C7 cuts through very nicely and everybody is familiar with the sound and feel. if you have the space i would opt for the 9'. for jazz/classical i would, as RKrizman already said, research what your potential clients would prefer. i have a steinway at home and have used it on recordings. it' s beautiful and expressive, but not as easy to EQ in a busy mix as a yamaha would be.

if classical/jazz players are the primary target, i suspect it would be steinway/bosendorfer.

[moeses]

untill the feel of an ACTUAL piano's keys are duplicated in a keyboard, there's no substitute...
the way a piano's keys fly of your fingers, well you know

[elambo]

I have to agree with what's become the most popular suggestion - Yamaha C7.

[rr1073]

We have a Yamaha C7. It seems the best for all around studio use. Try to find a used one in good condition...but make sure you have a qualified piano tuner/tech. check it out thoroughly before you buy.

[Roland]

As a rule jazz pianists will be less critical than classical pianists. A 7ft piano will suffice for most jazz work but isn't enough for serious concert pianists. Classical pianists normally will also be looking for an "acoustic" in which to play, so this may effect whether you can seriously tout for this work. At the very top level a pianist will even go for a piano selection and choose an instrument from 5-6 for the session. This in turn will be shipped to the hall/studio for use.

The Yamaha C7 is a good instrument and fairly cheap, though the newer ones do not seem to hold their tone. Steinways are great, but like all instruments variable from instrument to instrument. Fazioli's have a great reputation, but are expensive. Bosendorfers are favoured by a lot of jazz players for their beautiful warm tone, however not to the liking of all classical players.

For the widest acceptance I would always choose a (Hamburg) Steinway model D (9ft), as with anything you buy there are good ones and bad ones, and do not underestimate the difference that tunning, regulation, strings and action condition can make to the instrument. Those sort of repairs can add up to $10,000 or more.

I personally have a Grotian Steinweg 9ft Concert grand (this was the company originally formed by Steinweg before he moved to the States and changed his name to Steinway and set up Steinway and Sons). Its a good instrument having been fully restored, reminicent in sound to a Steinway, but from a hire point of view it wouldn't have the same impact as offering a Steinway.

Things like Baldwins etc I would personally steer well clear of.


Regards




Roland

[burst]

Yeah, our current thinking includes :

for pop/rock, the arrangement is usually so layered or dense that a killer sample works really well, and it offers the chance to fix timing via MIDI, leave parts undecided until after other ODs are added, etc. We've done this stuff for a long time with Kurzweil sounds, and the new Ivory plug is a huge improvement over even that (done by the Kurzweil team, from what I understand).

for classical, well... we just don't do that much of these projects. And there's a couple of decent-to-good options for doing a nice remote recording when the client needs it. So getting a 9 footer seems a tad over-the-top.

for jazz, this is the scene that our guys are most connected with, it seems, and it looks like getting a 7 foot Steinway B isn't a bad option (not that any of these are "bad" options, just different opinions). Since the C7 vibe is something we've been covering elsewhere and our clients in that world have been more than happy with the results, I'm leaning toward getting a B for the appeal to the jazz world.

Having said that, asking our clients is clearly the best advice yet. That will start soon. We can keep the thread going.... everyone's input is much appreciated and confirms, once again, that Gearslutz is a kickass hang. Thanks.

[Ted Nightshade]

It's not a big deal to replace all the hammer felts if need be.

I would make good friends with a really good piano tech, and find out exactly what's going to be involved in maintaining any individual piano.

The trouble with 9' pianos is that they are made to project. You can't even hear what the thing sounds like from the player's position. It's meant to be heard from 20+ feet away. That's where the sound comes together, and where the mics ought to be. So enough space for the 9' is really a nice big healthy space.

I'm glad you're investing in such a fine thing!

[Sounds Great]

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?t=30977

[Jeff A. Roberts]

After checking out the Yamahas and Steinways, I chose the road less traveled and purchased a 6'10'' Schimmel Unikaat.

The Unikaat was Schimmel's 100th anniversary model. They made 50 a year for 5 years. I own #147.

Even hardened Steinway snobs have conceded that they like the Schimmel.

One San Diego based pianist made the trip to my Minnesota studio three different times. She said my Schimmel was the best piano she had played in her life, which meant something from her-she was in her late 70's and had been a pro player her entire life.

Another band is going to come up from Florida this spring to record because they love the recorded sound of the Schimmel. That means I've drawn in people from the East and West coast to travel all the way to the Minnesota Tundra just to record on my little German piano....

If Stephen Paul was around he'd back me up on this. He was a Shimmel man also, but he had to sell his when he couldn't play anymore...

Schimmel uses action by Renner, the best in the world.

Many sessions have come to me because of my Schimmel Unikaat. The Unikaat is out of production now, but they make other models that are similar.

If you're checking out German grand pianos, there are at least three brands you should know about, Steinway, Bosendorfer, and Schimmel.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by runamuck

Unless you are planning to focus strictly on classical recordings I wouldnt suggest a Concert Grand (9' +-) piano. As far as Im concerned a recording studio doesnt need one whatever your focus...

I'll take this a step farther and say that for a recording studio you don't WANT one. We had a D at Motown and it was very hard to get it to not sound boomy when it was close miked. We had a small Steinway in the other studio but it didn't have enough bottom end.

The benchmark "great piano sound" is a Steinway B. Even then the players touch will make or break the sound.

[Roland]

As a rule German piano's are still pretty much the best around. Most of the top piano's use a Renner action, even Steinway's have Renner parts. Bosendorfer are not German, but Austrian, the Czechs have Petroff's which also can be good.

Depending on what level you are working at as to what sort of instrument you want. If you are a concert hall with major international artists visiting you would expect to have Steinway, Fazioli, Bosendorfer concert grand possibly a Yamaha. Bluthner is another good German make (though I don't personally like them as they sound sort of "cloudy").

Bechstein are now owned by Baldwin and don't seem to have the same reputation they once shared. My father who was in the piano trade all of his life always considered the Yamaha as similar in tone to the older Bechstein's a view I share. As I said in a previous post, I own a Grotian Steinweg (a smaller German manufacturer started by the founder of Steinway & Sons) similar in tone to a Steinway, possibly a tad warmer. A good concert Steinway secondhand is going to fetch around £32,000 + smaller 7ft around £15,000. Concert grands normally carry a premium as they are made in much smaller numbers and tend to be more handmade.

Regards



Roland

[R Tyck]

A lot of really good advice so far- I don't need to echo it.

I would say, however, that you need to get a copy of The Piano Book

It has a lot of great information about pianos, as well as a lot of info about buying them

Rob

[MBishopSFX]

A good Hamburg Steinway "D" in the hands of a great piano tech will not sound 'boomy' under any circumstances. Most classical pianists will be thrilled with this piano in a studio. I've had great results with a Yamaha CS-III concert grand for both classical & jazz, but you have to find one that's sweet-sounding - not too bright.

In my experience, you'll have to look far and wide to find a C-7 that isn't too bright & hard - most are. I've worked in many studios where they said "our C-7 is loved by everyone!" I always end up bringing in a rental. The C-7 at O'Henry Studios that Dave Gruisin had purchased way back is an exceptional piano. For jazz, that piano has been terrific.

You will have to have the right piano tech working with you. This is a BIG investment, so have the professional help in choosing the piano in the first place.

Stay away from ancient Steinways that have been rebuilt. They're nice to look at and have sentimental value, but I've never found one that recorded well.

Thank you for being willing to make this sort of investment! An excellent acoustic piano has yet to be duplicated in any form of sampling. A serious jazz or classical pianist would never record on an electronic keyboard anyway!

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by MBishopSFX

In my experience, you'll have to look far and wide to find a C-7 that isn't too bright & hard - most are. I've worked in many studios where they said "our C-7 is loved by everyone!" I always end up bringing in a rental. The C-7 at O'Henry Studios that Dave Gruisin had purchased way back is an exceptional piano. For jazz, that piano has been terrific.

That is a lovely piano and I have played/recorded it in both rock and classical contexts with excellent results--shows it's possible, if rare, to cover all the bases. I think Jim Wilson takes care of it. (or at least he used to).

One night after a particularly late mixing session in the smaller studio, we went into the big room where Dr. John had recently recorded. They had captured his performance on the Disclavier and we had a pretty stoned out spooky moment watching that piano channeling Dr. John with nobody sitting at the keys. (Take THAT Magic Castle.)

The only reason I suggested a 9 ft Yamaha was from an experience I had several years ago playing Elton John's big Yammie at Air Lindhurst studios one night. It was without a doubt the most luxurious sounding and gratifying piano I've ever played. The tone was so opulent and playable that it just set aside any questions of whether it was too bright or too bassy or whatever. When I enquired further I was told that they just put more love into the action and the overall construction on the 9 footers. In other words, there are benefits besides just having longer bass strings. Other studios in London seemed to feature the Steinways, and in general I enjoyed them more than the Yamahas I've played in L.A. So many of the C7's in the L.A. studios, like Capital, Westlake, the Village, Rumbo, have these beat up old war horses with lacquered hammers that are very bright and pop sounding, but not broadly pianistic. The funniest thing I've ever seen is the 9 ft Steinway at Sound City, the entire top of which is completely enclosed by a huge plywood box, with 414's permanently mounted on the inside. I don't think they've touched those hammers since Dr. John recorded Iko Iko on it in 1972. Plink, plink, plink!

In any case, shop around.

-R

[7rojo7]

As a calling card a Steinway B should suffice although other less known marcs play very very well. However they're rare. The Yomama's are excellent instruments often snobbed. Their frames have been treated to artificially age the iron to make it more dense and if you want an action that is a little heavier your tech can adjust it for you.
As has been mentioned, classical pianists will want the acoustics and atmosphere but that won't stop you from doing ensemble work, for which a smaller piano is better suited. Also for accompianment of a singer; half stick, string trio, half stick, and many other ensemble occasions call for the piano to have a subdued tone and a secondary role in the arrangement. There's nothing worse than a singer trying to scream over a piano.
To me, Jazz sounds better on smaller pianos some music een uprights, why go to drastic eq and mic placement when the sound already exists?

[Dave Martin]

One item that has NOT been mentioned yet is that a number of jazz and classical pianists are endorsers of one piano brand or another. If you're trying to make your room a destination piano room for top tier artists, this might be an issue. Steinway provided a piano for a project I did here a month or two back because a Steinway Artist was involved. (I paid for cartage and tuners, of course).

Perhaps Mr. Bishop would comment on his experience with this...

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Dave Martin

One item that has NOT been mentioned yet is that a number of jazz and classical pianists are endorsers of one piano brand or another. If you're trying to make your room a destination piano room for top tier artists, this might be an issue. Steinway provided a piano for a project I did here a month or two back because a Steinway Artist was involved. (I paid for cartage and tuners, of course).

Perhaps Mr. Bishop would comment on his experience with this...

Steinways operate the largest roster of endorsed artists in the piano business (there is a list on their website). Bosendorfer, Fazioli and Yamaha do very few between them.

Regards



Roland

[joaquin]

Originally Posted by runamuck

Dont buy anything without a trusted pianist with good ears and taste first playing it for awhile.

WOW!! I'm speechless with all the knowdledge and passion for The PIANO!!
it ain't yet all about bits and plug-ins!!
Well, I just wanted to put emphasis in Jim' commentary. IMHO each one of these beautiful instruments, made out of a zillion parts, have a character of their own, and I would not buy one without playing it first.
Congratulations!!....hope to get there eventually thumbsup

PS. Question: I've been improvising a lot lately with my studiologic controller, and recording the MIDI performances in PT......is it posible to playback those MIDI files trough a Disclavier so I can record actual sound waves?
Thanks..............Joaquin.