Limiter for mix bus to use in live situation

[toonelind]

Hello,

This is my first post in Gearslutz, altough I've been reading this board over a year and got some really valuable information out of here.

I'm playing in a psychedelic rock band (guitar, 2 synth players, drums, vocal and lot's of effects).
Recently we started to use old Sennheiser broadcast mixer for reheasals and this board has a really simple built in limiter on mix bus. The only available options are on/off and link. We discovered, that having the limiter on, gives us a so many new options for playing with volumes of different effects. Unfortunately this board is far too heavy and old for gigging.

So now I'm interested in getting a piece of hardware, that would enable us get the same kind of effect when playing live. As I'm new to hardware compressors/limitters, I'm not sure, where to start.

First I was considering FMR Audio RNLA 7239 or something from Joemeek, but may be there is something older (with more vintage sound) worth having a look at ebay?

A huge bonus would be, if the limiter would also be useful when tracking.

PS. Due to my location it is quite difficult to try things out myself, so I really appreciate all help.

Greetings

Tanel

[drummerboy1533]

Try and dig around for an MXR Dual LImiter. Probably had for around $300 used. Great for recording too!

[PoorGlory]

You generally don't want to compress the entire mix bus live. You would pretty much only use a limiter as a safety net to catch peaks before they hit the amps, but that feature is standard in most loudspeaker control units/crossovers (dbx Driverack, BSS Omnidrive, etc)

If you want to limit certain FX for creative purposes, then sure, go for it. But why make the bass sound suffer for a keyboard effect?

No reason to compress the entire mix bus live.

[Dan]

aphex Dominator.

Great transparent limiting. (for live, and I know some guys that use them in the studio.)

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by PoorGlory

You generally don't want to compress the entire mix bus live.......

No reason to compress the entire mix bus live.

Depends on the size of the venue. For bars and small gigs you won't hear too much of a difference until you over compress. In these situations I would use the compressors on individual channels or groups.

I regularly compress my main mix and my side fill/front fill mixes. I really like things like Tube Techs or anything to add a bit of even harmonics to the mix. I -always- have limiters on my mixes before the amps.....

dbx compressors (160 whatevers) work well as well and for not very much. Most of them offer compression & limiting.

The dbx Driverrack is a very popular solution for PA control.... There are several versions. Check out these links:

dbx DriveRack PA | Sweetwater.com
dbx DriveRack 260 | Sweetwater.com
dbx DriveRack 4800 | Sweetwater.com

[plexisys]

Older DBX are more than enough for all your needs.

[toonelind]

Thousand thanks for answers. I met a guy, who will lend me aphex dominator for test drive

and

a friend of mine promised to build me one. He has several limiter modules originating from large Tesla studio console, built in 60s. I hope I'll get something wierd out of them, if modified a bit and housed in 1U rack

[The Reel Thing]

Originally Posted by PoorGlory

You generally don't want to compress the entire mix bus live.

No reason to compress the entire mix bus live.

wow, that's so untrue. just because most live mixers don't have any experience with 2 buss compression doesn't mean it's not a good idea.
when i do live gigs, i always take my API 2500 and a set of adapters for different consoles in a small rack with me. i usually compress a really smooth 2-3 dBs @ 3:1, slow attack, fairly fast release.
1. it makes mixing a band you don't know sooo much easier, especially during the first two songs, because your mix buss sounds way more even than without the comp.
2. the API sound always adds warmth and character, especially with these cold and soulless line arrays nowadays.
3. with the help of a good comp you get that rockin' pumpin' feeling at a much lower volume, means i can ride the PA a good 4-5 dB SPL lower than other mixers and still have the audience enjoy a powerful sound, but without the bleeding ears. (which is exactly the same effect that you have with a good mastering)

i've had many great comments about the sound i rode, and many jobs deriving from the jobs i'd done with the API comp.

tom

analoghaus :: studio label verlag - home

[PDC]

Originally Posted by Dan

aphex Dominator.

Great transparent limiting. (for live, and I know some guys that use them in the studio.)

+1, IF you can find them used at an affordable price. I picked up a pair dirt cheap two years ago but I had to really look.

[PDC]

Originally Posted by The Reel Thing

wow, that's so untrue. just because most live mixers don't have any experience with 2 buss compression doesn't mean it's not a good idea.
when i do live gigs, i always take my API 2500 and a set of adapters for different consoles in a small rack with me. i usually compress a really smooth 2-3 dBs @ 3:1, slow attack, fairly fast release.
1. it makes mixing a band you don't know sooo much easier, especially during the first two songs, because your mix buss sounds way more even than without the comp.
2. the API sound always adds warmth and character, especially with these cold and soulless line arrays nowadays.
3. with the help of a good comp you get that rockin' pumpin' feeling at a much lower volume, means i can ride the PA a good 4-5 dB SPL lower than other mixers and still have the audience enjoy a powerful sound, but without the bleeding ears. (which is exactly the same effect that you have with a good mastering)

i've had many great comments about the sound i rode, and many jobs deriving from the jobs i'd done with the API comp.

tom

analoghaus :: studio label verlag - home

You cannot hyper compress and band limit live like you can in the studio. You will have feedback issues for days. You are also going to have some issues with amplifiers and speaker distortion at high volumes.

[dbbubba]

Live guys have used 2 mix compression since more than half of the GS posters were alive.
Don't listen to that idiot!
Hell, Gino Vanelli's F.O.H. mixers had a stereo, three way X-over and three dbx165s on the lo/mid/hi back in 1977!
That is multi-band compression in alive setting and it sounded really good!

I personally have not mixed without a compressor of some type on the mains since 1978 or '79.
In late '79 into '80 I was using a pair of Altec tube compressors on the L/R and another set on lead Vox and bass.

The trick to using compression live is to go "light."
If you try mondo amounts of it you will possibly have feedback problems.
If not used correctly it can also be detrimental and muddy up the mix.
just apply it in small amounts (2:1, 3:1, 4:1 and about -3db to -5db on peaks.)
Once you feel bold you can try more drastic stuff, but you can tear up some drivers mighty quickly, too!
Seen it done a few times.

[nonamesleft]

ART PRO VLA
i bought it for some live vocal and acoustic guitar comping and fell in love with it. many people actually use it for recording, but i find it a little too noisy for that application. For live, it is virtually silent and on live mix bus it freekin rocks!

It is $300 for a new one, and maybe $200 for a used one.

The thing i love most about it is that i have gotten it to over 20db of compression without ever realizing it. For live use it is absolutely amazing!
Putting that on your mix bus is really sweet.

if i could, i'd compress every channel and every bus channel with it live...lol

[The Reel Thing]

Originally Posted by PDC

You cannot hyper compress and band limit live like you can in the studio. You will have feedback issues for days. You are also going to have some issues with amplifiers and speaker distortion at high volumes.

i never said i hyper compress and band limit like i do in the studio.
why don't you read my post before you tell me what i can and what i can't do?

tom

analoghaus :: studio label verlag - home

[PoorGlory]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

Live guys have used 2 mix compression since more than half of the GS posters were alive.
Don't listen to that idiot!
Hell, Gino Vanelli's F.O.H. mixers had a stereo, three way X-over and three dbx165s on the lo/mid/hi back in 1977!
That is multi-band compression in alive setting and it sounded really good!

I personally have not mixed without a compressor of some type on the mains since 1978 or '79.
In late '79 into '80 I was using a pair of Altec tube compressors on the L/R and another set on lead Vox and bass.

The trick to using compression live is to go "light."
If you try mondo amounts of it you will possibly have feedback problems.
If not used correctly it can also be detrimental and muddy up the mix.
just apply it in small amounts (2:1, 3:1, 4:1 and about -3db to -5db on peaks.)
Once you feel bold you can try more drastic stuff, but you can tear up some drivers mighty quickly, too!
Seen it done a few times.

Did you just call me an idiot because I said you generally don't want to compress the mix bus live? Then you said the trick is to go light?

**** you. fuuck You could have just disagreed. The personal attack was unwarranted.

The only compressor I've ever liked on a mix bus live was the Compellor/Dominator combo, but only a couple db of gain reduction here and there. I prefer to work without one.

[plexisys]

Since I started touring in the 70s I've always had compressors on at least the stereo bus. I've also inserted them on different ranges to the crossover, sub mixes and individual channels as needed. I always had a rack of 4-8 stereo or mono DBXs.

Part of the reason is to help improve the sound. A lot of the reason is when you are doing festivals, or a lot of acts are on the bil,l you also need to protect the system. Having at one time blown out every speaker in 40+ Clair Brothers cabinets it's good to protect the system.

It's not good to blow up they system tutt

[PDC]

Originally Posted by The Reel Thing

i never said i hyper compress and band limit like i do in the studio.
why don't you read my post before you tell me what i can and what i can't do?

tom

analoghaus :: studio label verlag - home

Dang hot head. I was making the distinction. I too, like those posting above, compress on the subs and mix buss. Don't ASSume.

BTW, how is that POS Oram console workin' for ya?

[jonboyrock]

Smart C2 is very popular. I like it for this purpose.

[lozion]

Originally Posted by The Reel Thing

wow, that's so untrue. just because most live mixers don't have any experience with 2 buss compression doesn't mean it's not a good idea.
when i do live gigs, i always take my API 2500 and a set of adapters for different consoles in a small rack with me. i usually compress a really smooth 2-3 dBs @ 3:1, slow attack, fairly fast release.
1. it makes mixing a band you don't know sooo much easier, especially during the first two songs, because your mix buss sounds way more even than without the comp.
2. the API sound always adds warmth and character, especially with these cold and soulless line arrays nowadays.
3. with the help of a good comp you get that rockin' pumpin' feeling at a much lower volume, means i can ride the PA a good 4-5 dB SPL lower than other mixers and still have the audience enjoy a powerful sound, but without the bleeding ears. (which is exactly the same effect that you have with a good mastering)
analoghaus :: studio label verlag - home

Will be trying my Chameleon Labs 7720 friday on the 2-bus, will repost...

[Jim vanBergen]

I have used many different types of 2-mix comps live, for groups and mix buss.

The RNC and RNLA, and the VLA are some of the finest, low cost comps you can find.

Personally, I like SSL G384s, Purple MC76s, and tube comps like Summit 200s and Valvotronics Gainryders.... but they aren't in everyone's price range.