Preamp suggestions for Jazz

[Johns]

My studio records mostly jazz, latin, and some classical music. I occasionally record rock and R&B but that is not my primary source of income. I need to add another pre to my collection. A little background. My preamps are a Spider, Pendulum MDP-1, Summit TPA-200, Focusrite ISA428, and Drawmer 1962. I love the Drawmer but it is always in the shop. In the 6 years I've owned it, I may have had 2 years of consistant use from it. It is now in for repair again, and I am beginning to give up on it. I would like to replace it with something that would compliment my present collection. It would be used for female vocals, trumpet, bone, sax, possibly grand piano, etc.

Right now I am thinking about these options to check out.
1. Groove tube Vipre
2. Great River MP-2NV
3. Another Drawmer 1962 (glutton for punishment )

My preference is tubes, but as you can see from the Great River in the list, I am not tied to that.

Any suggestions?

[airmate]

did you already think about a telefunken v72 or v76?

[Johns]

Originally Posted by airmate

did you already think about a telefunken v72 or v76?

Looks like I should add it to the list. How would you describe the telefunken v72 sound?

[hollywood_steve]

how about an API lunchbox and some 312 or 512 preamps?
(don't believe the common statement that API is "too colored" for non-rock work, NOT so!)

[airmate]

johns, just search the board. you should finde some information about the telefunken-preamps.

the v72 is somewhat like a chamaeleon. on the one hand it sounds very natural and precise, on the other hand it adds a certain color to the recordings - it has great transformers. to my ears it sounds not exactly like a neve (1073 pre), but the principle is the same: lots of details plus this special earthy timbre that lets tracks shimmer trough the mix, and that sounds a bit raw and very smooth at the same time.

i use a pair of v72's as the main preamps in my studio, and last year i tracked an entire album (lots of male and female soul vocals, rhodes and synths via a manley tube d.i., double bass, flugelhorn, trumpet, trombone, tenor sax, fender and gibson guitar, jazz bass, etc.) with these modules. okay, some recordings were made with a pair of 1073's, and some more with a couple of discrete v276-modules. but most of the recording ran through the v72's.

to my ears the album has a very classy sound. subtle coloration where necessary, but sometimes the v72's added a very soulful and heavy tone to the recordings. i wanted to let it sound standing in the tradition of late 60ties blue note recordings and early 70ties curtis mayfield productions. the v72-modules helped me a lot on this way.

[borau]

Second what airmate says here.

Remember, every single one of the great jazz recordings where done trough a few channels worth of tube console, many of them probably with V-series preamps. Or at least with american tube pre-amps from the same time.

I also do a lot of jazz recording (pays the bills) and wish that i had enough V channels to do simple jazz setups, only with those kind of preamps.
The V72's are the cheaper ones- GREAT sounding, but too noisy for ribbons,
no problem with tube or solid state condensers.
The V76 is supposed to work amazingly togheter with ribbons.

[Johns]

Originally Posted by hollywood_steve

how about an API lunchbox and some 312 or 512 preamps?
(don't believe the common statement that API is "too colored" for non-rock work, NOT so!)

I had thought about APIs but fell for the "not the best choice for jazz" thought. May need to give them a try. Not sure of the difference between the 312 and 512. I'll do a search.

[Johns]

Originally Posted by airmate

johns, just search the board. you should finde some information about the telefunken-preamps.

the v72 is somewhat like a chamaeleon. on the one hand it sounds very natural and precise, on the other hand it adds a certain color to the recordings - it has great transformers. to my ears it sounds not exactly like a neve (1073 pre), but the principle is the same: lots of details plus this special earthy timbre that lets tracks shimmer trough the mix, and that sounds a bit raw and very smooth at the same time.

i use a pair of v72's as the main preamps in my studio, and last year i tracked an entire album (lots of male and female soul vocals, rhodes and synths via a manley tube d.i., double bass, flugelhorn, trumpet, trombone, tenor sax, fender and gibson guitar, jazz bass, etc.) with these modules. okay, some recordings were made with a pair of 1073's, and some more with a couple of discrete v276-modules. but most of the recording ran through the v72's.

to my ears the album has a very classy sound. subtle coloration where necessary, but sometimes the v72's added a very soulful and heavy tone to the recordings. i wanted to let it sound standing in the tradition of late 60ties blue note recordings and early 70ties curtis mayfield productions. the v72-modules helped me a lot on this way.

Yes, I did a search and got some good information on the V72. No one was doing much jazz with it, but good information non the less. Your description is very useful and the kind of spcific sound description I was looking for.

[Frost]

I think the John Hardys are the classiest jazz preamp I can think of. I could probably make a record using only those preamps. The v72 is pretty sexy as well.
Frost

[pgk]

I think the John Hardys are the classiest jazz preamp I can think of. I could probably make a record using only those preamps.

my friend thinks the world of them. check out any patricia barber album that jim anderson engineered; he's into the hardy pres in a big way

[fifthcircle]

There is a lot of good stuff out there... I use the old Boulder Twin Servos a lot (now Hardy Twin Servo), the API stuff sounds great.. My favorite is Vac Rac when you can find it. (I happen to know somebody with 60+ channels so I'm pretty set for my gigs).

My opinion is that color is usually a good thing. To capture an "exact" replica of the performance can get rather dull and boring sounding. Spicing things up with transformers, tubes, etc... is always a good in my book.


-Ben

[Bob Olhsson]

The John Hardys, the original Great River and the Gordon would be well worth checking out at the high-end. The RNP might also be great for this in a relatively inexpensive preamp.

[wwittman]

What makes a preamp "not the best for jazz"?

Is it not good in certain keys?
Not good with improvisation?
Not friendly towards syncopation?

I suspect Abbey Road recorded plenty of Jazz through V-72's and certainly lots of jazz has been recorded through API's as well.

try this:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...884728-0672700

[kudzu]

Recorded a lot of jazz thru Millennia HV-3D pres into Radar....had choice of Aphex, Grace, API pres but Millennia worked out best for me....give'm a listen

[Johns]

I had forgotton about the John Hardy. Had an M-1 for about a week a few years ago and thought it was pretty nice. I borrowed it from a friend while some other preamps were being repaired (Precision 8 and Drawmer).

I had an Avalon 737 that I never liked when recording most instruments. It wasn't bad, but never gave me what I was looking for. Had a Grace 101 on loan for a week a few years ago and really didn't like it (although It worked fairly well on a choir recording using a pair of Schoeps with the MK-2 capsules).

I have to see which preamps I can get in here to check out.

[Trp]

What kind of sound are you looking for that neither the Crane Song nor the Pendulum, the ISA nor the Summit can give you?

[Johns]

Originally Posted by Trp

What kind of sound are you looking for that neither the Crane Song nor the Pendulum, the ISA nor the Summit can give you?

I love all of the above. The Spider is wonderful, clear and fat when needed, the Summit can be overdriven very nicely, and the Pendulum is my favorite. I needed to replace the Drawmer and want another flavor. I could be happy finding a Summit TPA-200A, or getting another MDP-1, but some of the suggestions here have me looking into different territory. I've decided to get 2 preamps. I will be auditioning the Hardy again, and the Gordon model 5.

Anyone have any experience with the TAB Fukenwerk V78? The Telefunken Pres look like they will be difficult to get in here to audition.

[pan60]

Originally Posted by wwittman

What makes a preamp "not the best for jazz"?

Is it not good in certain keys?
Not good with improvisation?
Not friendly towards syncopation?

I suspect Abbey Road recorded plenty of Jazz through V-72's and certainly lots of jazz has been recorded through API's as well.

try this:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...884728-0672700

good ?

[henryrobinett]

I record jazz pretty much exclusively. All varieties. From Be-bop to smallish big band to avant-garde to electric funk. Millennia is it for me. So much so I have 13 channels of the stuff. HV-3 mic pres. They've never let me down or been left with the feeling of wanting. For me they work and I can rely on them. I'm sure other things work well too.

[Johns]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

I record jazz pretty much exclusively. All varieties. From Be-bop to smallish big band to avant-garde to electric funk. Millennia is it for me. So much so I have 13 channels of the stuff. HV-3 mic pres. They've never let me down or been left with the feeling of wanting. For me they work and I can rely on them. I'm sure other things work well too.

I have never had any experience with Millennia gear. I think I have an unfounded and probably wrong feeling that they are too sterile. Of course without trying them, I shouldn't make any judgement.

[kudzu]

Originally Posted by Johns

I have never had any experience with Millennia gear. I think I have an unfounded and probably wrong feeling that they are too sterile. Of course without trying them, I shouldn't make any judgement.

Because of the nature of jazz....detail, sympathy for dynamics is a must for pres/mics......Millennia handles these very well......

[barforama]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

The John Hardys, the original Great River and the Gordon would be well worth checking out at the high-end. The RNP might also be great for this in a relatively inexpensive preamp.

I second that GR MP4NH suggestion.
Akllthough I lovge my MP2NV's I would definetly reach for the original GR pre's for something like piano and drumoverheads, escpecially when doing jazz.

[seedee701]

Originally Posted by Johns

I have never had any experience with Millennia gear. I think I have an unfounded and probably wrong feeling that they are too sterile. Of course without trying them, I shouldn't make any judgement.

sterile sounds a little negative. i would call it extremely dynamic, true to transients and delivering enormous clarity. (hv-3b)
but then there is also the 2 cha tube m-2b that adds a little more colour if that's what you are looking for...
cannot imagine a sound that wouldn't sound GREAT through this one...

[Zarathustra]

Originally Posted by wwittman

What makes a preamp "not the best for jazz"?

Is it not good in certain keys?
Not good with improvisation?
Not friendly towards syncopation?

Indeed! API is no good in B flat. Sounds too sharp.
Improvisation clearly sucks through GML. Far too precise.
Old EMI stuff is poorly matched with syncopation, as the English are all about the downbeat.

Z

[Johns]

Originally Posted by seedee701

sterile sounds a little negative. i would call it extremely dynamic, true to transients and delivering enormous clarity. (hv-3b)
but then there is also the 2 cha tube m-2b that adds a little more colour if that's what you are looking for...
cannot imagine a sound that wouldn't sound GREAT through this one...

Yeah, sterile does sound more negative than I meant. The M-2B does sound interesting.

[henryrobinett]

I gotta say I don't think there's anything sterile about Millennia. I've heard that bandied about before, and many times from people who haven't used them. You gotta go with what you personally know and not slam things you don't.

[lucey]

Clean Tube suggestion is Requisite Audio

a non-sterile SS with one tranny is the Martech Mss10

[wwittman]

Hey I'm English.
We're all about the BACKBEAT.

and tea, of course.

[Sounds Great]

I have Millennia and John Hardy M1. I find them fairly interchangeable, with a little extra something on the Hardy, maybe because of the transformer.

But there is nothing I wouldn't use the Millennia for either, and it ain't sterile, unless the source is sterile. What you hear is what you get.

[Velvetfreddy]

I guess the question could be posed "What is jazz?"
I assume you are referring to somewhat traditional jazz- acoustic instruments, and not stuff like the Yellowjackets.?
Then the question would be are you interested in recording the way classic jazz records sounded(Kind of Blue, Tenor Madness, Time Out..) or the way more modern jazz is recorded, which is cleaner, more accurate and more clinical to my ears.
Personally, I prefer the sound of warmer, classic recordings, in which case I think good tube pre's, good mics, and tape would be the answer. Oh yeah, and a good room.