HD Video Cameras.

[Shadow_7]

I'm wanting to supplement my audio recording with some video gear. What would compliment a Korg MR-1000 well? I know there's sync issues without a world clock and all. But I'm wanting to take the next step away from my digital camera 25fps 640x480 for about 20 minutes of battery life. I'd like something closer to 30fps and 1280x800-ish with 7 hours battery life. On my digital camera, taking huge pictures to crop or scale a smaller image yields better results IMO. I don't need HD resolution per say now, but it'd be nice to have it.

So what's the DSD equivalent in Video gear for $1,000? Most likely to be compressed to YouTube quality, but it'd be nice to have the best YouTube vid out there. I would like at least 3 hours battery life, and storage capacity for 7 hours minimum. At least 1024x768, hopefully higher. No noisey fans or anything. Weather resistent, rain plus heat. Survivorman quality is good enough I guess, when he's not complaining about his gear not working.

It'd be nice to be able to burn some blue ray vids. But I want to keep it affordable. Mostly outdoor recording. And I don't want to just see the sunset, with everything else blacked out.

[DSD_Mastering]

Originally Posted by Shadow_7

So what's the DSD equivalent in Video gear for $1,000?

I was just in Tokyo last month and saw some small hand-held Blu-ray video cameras that were really sweet! I believe they were Hitachi and sold for about $1k

Regards,
Bruce

[videoteque]

Most likely to be compressed to YouTube quality, but it'd be nice to have the best YouTube vid out there. I would like at least 3 hours battery life, and storage capacity for 7 hours minimum. At least 1024x768...

You have to decide if you want HD or if you want YouTube quality (320x240!!!). Non profesional video-cameras have little CCDs, so with less pixels, they are bigger and the camera behaves better in low-light (90% of concerts). So non HD cameras are better for YouTube.

If you want the best YouTube videos, I recomend you buy a used 3CCDs mini-dv camera, sony or panasonic. They are SD standard definition (720x480, NTSC), but good in low-light.

If you want to be future-proof and prefer going HD, you can do a lot worse than buying a Canon HV30 which is THE camera to beat in the under 1K$. To step up from this Canon, you need to spend 3K$.

[Shadow_7]

I want at least DVD quality. Perferably more, not that I'll use it. But like my Korg those capable of more generally do much better at the lower settings than other gear. And should I actually need more, it's there already. Most things will likely be viewed from YouTube-ish things during a given season. But it'd be nice to put it all together for an actual DVD at seasons end.

That Canon looks to be in line with what I'm wanting. 10x - 15x zoom would be a plus. I forgot to mention that. Most of the videos we got this year had the sun setting in view of the camera, and everything not sky was blacked out for all intents and purposes. I'd like a camera that doesn't do that.

[Whitecat]

Originally Posted by Shadow_7

That Canon looks to be in line with what I'm wanting. 10x - 15x zoom would be a plus. I forgot to mention that. Most of the videos we got this year had the sun setting in view of the camera, and everything not sky was blacked out for all intents and purposes. I'd like a camera that doesn't do that.

You need a camera that has a manual exposure override or at the very least a 'backlight' button, otherwise virtually ALL cameras, at any level, will do that!

[Shadow_7]

These also look good. Anyone use any of these?

JVC - Model GZ-HD6

Panasonic - Model HDC-HS9 (March 2008)

Sony - Model HDR-SR12 (August 2008)

[Shadow_7]

Hitachi - Model DZ-BD70A
DZBD70A
(Zoom 10x/500x)
(SD/BD/DVD)

JVC - Model GZ-HD7
Full HD Everio Hybrid - GZ-HD7 - Performance
(the HD6 doesn't appear to have zoom)
(Zoom 10x/200x)
(SD/60GB HDD)

Panasonic - Model HDC-HS9 (March 2008)
Panasonic HDC-HS9 Support and Service Information
(Zoom 10x/700x)
(SD/60GB HDD)

Sony - Model HDR-SR12 (August 2008)
HDR-SR12 | HDR-SR12 120GB High Definition Handycam® Camcorder | Sony | SonyStyle USA
(Zoom 12x/150x)
(MSPD/120GB HDD)

Canon - Model HV-30
Consumer Camcorders - High Definition Camcorders - DVD Camcorders - Single Chip CCD Digital Camcorders - Digital Camcorder - HV30- Canon USA Consumer Products
(Zoom 10x/200x)
(?????)

The Canon looks promising as it has the ability to convert my VHS / TV Shows to media if I connect to it. Which will save me the purchase of a TV card and driver/compatibility issues. But then again I wont be able to watch TV on my laptop in realtime. Not that any of the others can't also do this, but the Canon says it can.

I'm some respects I'd rather have the Sony (storage space), or the JVC (Fancy Lense), or the panasonic (zoom), or the hitachi (blue ray burner). But I suppose the Canon suits my current needs better. As soon as it lists power consumption and media types/capacities anyway.

What is the expected battery life on these things? The specs are rather incomplete for all intents and purposes.

[videoteque]

What is the expected battery life on these things? The specs are rather incomplete for all intents and purposes.

A couple of hours with the biggest battery... I'm telling from memory.

The HV30 has manual exposition to avoid the problem you mentioned. It records onto DV tapes (3$ for 62 minutes) which represents a nice backup. Video takes a lot more space than audio and project management easily becomes a PITA...

[Shadow_7]

It seems we're still missing a few posts in this one. That Red Scarlet thing is a bute. When it finally comes out. In the meantime I'm stumbling upon other devices that might suit the bill. If that Scarlet creature does anything like it's Red One cousin. Wow. If only for still shots. Finally a digital cam that doesn't need a 12K px X 12K px image to make a decent 100px X 100px avatar.


Nikon - Model D90
Nikon | Imaging Products | Nikon D90
(Zoom 1.5x?????)
(SD / ???)

Panasonic - Model AG-HMC150
Learn about Panasonic's AG-HMC150 - Professional 3-CCD Handheld AVCCAM camcorder
(Zoom 13x / ???)
(SD / ???)

Red - Model Scarlet
RED / SCARLET
(Zoom 8x / ???)
(CF / ???)


The Nikon might be a nice middle ground. Not really a camcorder. But can function as one with 720p recording.

The Panasonic seems to be at too high of a price point, might as well wait for the Scarlet. If it was half the projected price of the Scarlet, perhaps.

[bcgood]

Film is still the ultimate. Red 5K will be fun to play with when it comes out. Panasonic at 24 fps 1080p is good for the money. Still, you have to know lighting and exposure. Both take very long to learn...

[kosi]

I own a Sony HDR SR8. This is running with the biggest Battery pack about 500 Minutes. It has a built in 100 GB Disk, which is very nice, but if you you import it to final cut, the disk space is exploding. Transfering 70 GB AVCHD to my Mac ended in 700GB of mov files. So be prepared. Editing takes a lot of time and you need a "really fast" computer.

[esaias]

I've heard a lot of good things about Canon HV-20 and HV-30 from hobbyists.
They are HDV camers which means casettes (which is not really a bad thing).

Don't get fooled by pixel count and stuff, I have old Sony VX1000 (SD camera) which still beats the crap out of many consumer "hd" cameras.
Try to look for reviews that concentrate on sensitivity and colour reproduction.

-Tomi

[blaugruen7]

there is a new canon camera coming in september.
HG-21 with 120 GB internal harddisc.

[Shadow_7]

Yes, I'm leaning towards either an HV30 or a HG20 at the moment. Apparently some clarity issues between HDV and AVCHD. The HG20 and HG21 doing the highest rate for AVCHD which may or may not equal the HDV quality. Or some such, still greek to me at the moment. I'm happy with the stills I've come across. And they record good too, as long as nothing is moving. To include the camera.

I'm kind of glad I can't afford one at the moment. It seems the longer I wait, the higher quality recordings I can make for less money. The hype around the scarlet is alluring though. And capable of 120fps, so perhaps a digital cam that finally doesn't blur motion. And looks cool too.

[Whitecat]

Originally Posted by Shadow_7

YI'm kind of glad I can't afford one at the moment. It seems the longer I wait, the higher quality recordings I can make for less money. The hype around the scarlet is alluring though. And capable of 120fps, so perhaps a digital cam that finally doesn't blur motion. And looks cool too.

Don't forget though that the RED system stuff usually needs a tonne of extras - not the least of which is somewhere to put the massive amounts of data after you shoot it. Not sure if it includes monitoring, either, so make sure you've got the budget for the mandatory extras if you decide to hold out for Scarlet!

[videoteque]

And capable of 120fps, so perhaps a digital cam that finally doesn't blur motion.

In order to avoid motion blur, you need to use a high shutter speed, like 1/1000 seconds (which nearly all camcorders can do easily today).

What 120fps gives you is the ability to do better slow-motion later, in post-production, in NTSC at 30f, you can have a 4x slow motion if you record at 120fps.

[Legacy]

Don't really have much to contribute since I know very little about video but I have my feet wet (perhaps only a toe or two...) with 2x HV30s. Adding a Beachtek adapter has given me stereo XLR audio input that sounds pretty good and has flexible input level controls (detented which has been a good thing). In limited use the cameras have proven sensible, reliable, and the footage can be really nice. A lot of bang for the buck if your primary focus is audio but you want to give clients a basic multimedia package that looks good.

-Silas

[d_fu]

While the HV 20/30 are tempting, what I dislike is the ridiculous amount of "wide angle" they offer, you can hardly call it that... Depending on the resolution and aspect ratio, it's beyond 43 or so and more than 50 mm (35 mm equivalent).

I recently got a second-hand Canon XM1, which is not HD, but it's got a very nice picture quality, also in low light. Wide angle is just under 40mm, IIRC, and I've got a lens adapter that will take it down to 28 or so.

So far I've only made two concert recordings with video (just a single perspective, no zooming, nothing).

[jmarkham]

The Sony EX* and the Panasonic HVX200AP are the best of the
lot right now in the prosumer space (imho). The new 200AP has
a great new imaging chip in it and is a true 16:9 surface .. no
optics or oblong pixel games on that one.

jeff

[videoteque]

The original question was:

So what's the DSD equivalent in Video gear for $1,000?

Of course if you spend 100x or even 10x your budget you get a better cam.

I agree with d_fu, you probably need a wide-angle adapter with the HV20/30, as you need with your XM1.

[lblstudio]

Canon HF11.

[tsvisser]

The video equivalent of DSD?....

You mean a format that has been abandoned by Sony in the consumer space, was better than its contemporaries, but ended up being too expensive to use?

Betacam

[Shadow_7]

I'm still leaning towards an HG20. With an HV30 fallback, depending on how much I want to spend. Learning a lot hanging in other forums. A lot more than I ever cared for anyway. Somehow audio seems simple in comparison. Still a month or more away on a purchase. Need to sell a Tuba and/or Trumpet to pay for it. And I'll probably never do video professionally (red/green colorblind).

Want analog in (HV30). Need 1920x1080 (AVCHD / HG20). Could live with 1440x1080 (HDV / HV30). But would rather have HDD recording (HG20). Don't have firewire (HV30). Don't have 2.2GHz dual core CPU machine (AVCHD / HG20). But I am able to convert AVCHD to 720p for playback at less than max cpu usage. I'm still waiting on the HG20 (Sept. 15th). Since it seems to be vaporware in terms of media samples. Although many say the HF11/10/100 are equivalents. And the media samples on them is decent. And spec wise they seem to share the same guts. But HV30 has the larger sensor. It seems that anything short of a Scarlet is a comprimise.

[geekd]

I have an Canon HV20 (HV30 is same with some extra features). I love it, and you can get an HV30 new for under $700.

Here's some video I shot last weekend. A blues band at HOB in San Diego. Audio is 9 tracks into pro tools, and synced with video in Final Cut after audio was mixed.

West Of Memphis - Three-Way Party on Vimeo
West Of Memphis - Sloppy Drunk on Vimeo

The HV20/HV30 has a very active enthusiast following, and many many tips and bits of advice can be found at a dedicated HV20/HV30 forum: Canon HV20 / HV30 User Forum - Powered by vBulletin

I certainly consider it the best camera under $1000.

-geekd

[musikwerks]

Going from 25fps to 30fps gives you no increase in quality. It's just PAL vs NTSC and as one who works in both all the time... PAL eats NTSC for breakfast. The Canon HV20 is a great little camera for the bucks and records 1920x1080. You will need to get some sort of wide angle adapter for it though.

Forget RED unless you're a serious cinematographer.

[Shadow_7]

Actually HV?0 records using HDV which is 1440x1080 stretched to 1920x1080. Not that one can tell any difference on a 1280x800 LCD. But there is some detail difference when extracting individual frames. More noticeable in verticle stripes like grass, hair, plaid, and stuff.

So what's with the wide angle preference? What I'm planning on is a UV filter, a lens hood, and a high capacity battery, or two. The UV filter so I can do the ziplock bag rain cape trick. And the lens hood to keep the rain drops off the filter / lens. Although it does appear that many lens hoods are geared for wide angle lenses.

I've got an SDHC card coming in the mail. It should be here Friday, so I can take it into best buy and give the HG20 a try out. Best Buy lists the HG20 as in stock online, but I'm definitely gonna call ahead. I ordered the SDHC online since best buy online options were a bit dated, and I figured that in store options would be worse. I'm pretty much sold on the HG20 right now. I just gotta get some samples, and play with them a bit. And then find a cheaper source for one.

[musikwerks]

I didn't know that about the 1440 x 1080 on the HV20 but it makes sense... It's the same as HD Cam and DVC Pro HD I guess.... when it all comes down it's really only 4:1:1.

[Shadow_7]

According to hv20.com forums. It's more like 4:2:0. With 4:2:2 being the unobtainable holy grail (at the consumer level). Not that I know much about color. Or care being partially color blind. All I know is that the 3.3 MP stills(Canon HV30) seem to trump my 7.2 MP digital camera (Sony cybershot). I like the ideal that I can take high detail video, and extract individual frames with good clarity at any point. Which beats in practice taking five larger sized pictures of the same image to ensure that at least one of them looks fair. Or trying to make an animated avatar from non-linear pictures. At a minimum 60GB stores a lot more images than 2GB.

[postdigital]

been doing a bit of hdv stuff lately

hdv codec falls apart very quickly with a lot of movement.... like handheld shots particularly.... colour and detail just go out the window... mastering back to hdv after editing will loose more quality in the end also.

i've heard a lot of complaints about hdv low light performance (smaller pixels?)

scaling hdv resolution to dv has been more problematic than i thought it would be... not so much like with a still camera... getting high-rez images to work on sd video can be a pain in the ass actually.

if the web is your main output.... i'd recommend a vx2000 or vx2100 (or the dvcam versions)
amazingly vibrant colours with some in camera adjustments... nice lenses... crap audio quality but i guess that's not an issue.
they can shoot 15 frames per second progressive which really will add up to nice looking web videos (with a lot less hassle in the conversion part)
these cameras are absolutely amazing in low light also (the 2100 being better i've heard)

if you can find one for 1g i think you'd be happy with the results...
if you had to uprez to a bluray disc, a century optics 16:9 anamorphic adapter might just do the trick



....for hdv.... i used a v1... shoots progressive and can do free-run TC which could be a nice bonus

[Shadow_7]

VX2100 - does seem to have some impressive low light performance. But being a CCD camcorder it's subject to smear from light sources. CMOS sensors seem to not have that problem. Although not problem free, skew, wobble, partial exposure.

What I really want is the Red Scarlet. But it's not available for probably another year. And it may be three years before I have the funds free to purchase one. The HG20 still seams like the better bet. Although I'm in no rush for one at the moment.