Pipe organ and harmonica location recording

[borut]

I haven't jet recorded a really big pipe organ, but it looks like I will be recording it together with harmonica performing mostly Bach.
Has anybody had the experience of recording the biggest and almost smallest instrument side by side????
The thing that worries me most is to get enough separation for the harmonica while still preserving the most naturall sound possible, since it is a classical recording.

Any advice on recording the pipe organ also welcome!
Where to place the mics arround such a big instrument?

Thanks!
Borut

[zimv20]

i did a test recording of a pipe organ last year. i set up mics like this:

1. x/y pair in the sweet spot in the house, about 30' feet away from the main chambers
2. two mis-matched condensors, each pointing at one of the chambers, about 15' away
3. a spot mic on a xylophone

results:
- the x/y pair captured too much room
- the 15' mics did well
- the spot mic was unnecessary

in the mix, i mostly used the mics from 2. and brought up the mics in 1. to capture a bit of the room and the xylophone, which they picked up quite well.

someday, i'll go in to do the real recording. what i'll probably do is put up a pair of spaced omnis w/ a jenklin disc (which i didn't have at the time), closer than i had the x/y pairs.

.....

about the harmonica, do you have to record it at the same time as the organ? what an interesting problem.

[Rick Sutton]

Just add a kazoo player and you'll have a real concert on your hands.



Sorry. I just couldn't help myself.




Good luck. Is the harmonica amplified? If not he'll probably blow his lungs out.
Was this Bach's idea of a practical joke.


Oh, I get it .............P.D.Q. Bach. That explains it.

[joaquin]

Just add a kazoo player and you'll have a real concert on your hands.

Well, I think it'll depend on their ability to perform together, Level wise...if yo want to capture the room. If Not...just mic both instruments as to have the most control stike

[borut]

First the harmonica player is quite a virtuoso on that instrument so he is not ot be underrated (he has done quite some recordings and is considerred to be rather good in what he does).

The harmonica (of course ) is amplified a little on concert, but I would't amplify it for the recording (or should I ??????)

Any other suggestions???
Thanks!

[Logan]

Originally Posted by borut

First the harmonica player is quite a virtuoso on that instrument so he is not ot be underrated (he has done quite some recordings and is considerred to be rather good in what he does).

The harmonica (of course ) is amplified a little on concert, but I would't amplify it for the recording (or should I ??????)

Any other suggestions???
Thanks!

Well I've never played Bach on a harmonica, but in a blues band I want my harp amped just so I can keep up. Surely the guy in the room with a thundering pipe organ will need a little help to hear himself and surely the organist will want to hear the harp. If the harp player is normally amped then he'll want that to achieve his sound, with the material in question that may not be the case. A decent cue mix through phones would seem like a minimum requirement. Take care Logan

[hollywood_steve]

A couple of comments:

Although I have only recorded one pipe organ, I have spent a decent amount of time listening to a whole bunch of 'em.


The thing that worries me most is to get enough separation for the harmonica while still preserving the most naturall sound possible, since it is a classical recording.

So why aim for "separation" at all? Its not going to happen anyway......pipe organs are not like other instruments where the sound comes from a specific point; the whole damn room becomes the instrument with an organ. Which means you can't just throw up a gobo and hope the sound of the organ doesn't get behind it, its already there!

You state that its a "classical recording" so why not utilize classical recording techniques?

[joaquin]

Steve Wrote

You state that its a "classical recording" so why not utilize classical recording techniques?

What do you mean by that...any of the different stereo pairs...or...what? Sorry for my genuine ignorance.

[hollywood_steve]

You state that its a "classical recording" so why not utilize classical recording techniques?

What do you mean by that...any of the different stereo pairs...or...what? Sorry for my genuine ignorance

(NOTE - the following comments reflect some common generalities. I could have prefaced every statement with "In many cases" but I didn't. Please don't flame me because you can point to specific cases where the comments don't apply.)

Well, for one thing, the whole idea of separation has little or no place in classical recordings. The usual reason that a recording engineer wants separation is so he can process a track without affecting other instruments. And that just doesn't happen in most classical recordings.

Another big difference between classical and pop recordings has to do with the mixing of the various instruments. In pop recordings, the mixing takes place after the musicians have gone home; its performed by the engineer. In classical recordings, the mixing takes place during the recording and its done by the musicians, not by the engineer. The musicians "mix" themselves by listening to each other and adjusting their dynamics accordingly.

And the pipe organ pretty much forces the second kind of "mixing" in that any kind of separation is impossible. Any mic in that room is going to pick up the organ, so why waste time trying to achieve separation? Spend your time and effort getting a good blend between instruments in the mics, and you're on the right track.

[borut]

When I wrote separation I wasn't thinking of getting a separate sound, I would like to just be on the safe side and have one channel of fairly clean organ so I can process it separatelly a little in the mix if I will have to.

I will be working with headphones and for me that kind of monitoring is inadequate for such a recording.


I know that in the mix it is possible that I will use just a stereo pair of mics that will be in the mist appropriate place.


I will record all eight channels just for safety since I will be my first time in the room and my monitoring will be far from what I am used to in the studio.

I was just wondering if anybody has found from experience where it would perhaps be wise to try and place the microphones.

[Remoteness]

I'd mic the room and place a spot mic by the harmonica player.

Bring up your best sounding room mics and blend in the harp mic accordingly.

[fifthcircle]

Is the harmonica player going to bring his own mic? I ask because I worked with a harmonica virtuoso a few years back who was soloing with a symphony orchestra. He brought a lav mic which he placed on his shirt collar for use with the recording and amplification.

The mic wasn't fantastic sounding so we had to put it through a bit more EQ and a touch of limiting, but in the end it came out well. Also, because it was so much closer to the source than anything else, we had to give it a bit of extra reverb in the mix...

--Ben

[joaquin]

Thanks steve!
What if you amplify the Harmonica in order to get the right balance in the Room and then just use your best stereo Pair to capture the performance?
I'd also have a pair close miking the Organ and a spot mic like remotness said.
Please post the results and how you did it......Joaquin.

What if you amplify the Harmonica in order to get the right balance in the Room

.............not very traditional I know

[jazzbutcher]

As a number of people mentioned already - listen hard and find a good spot to mic the room from. The air always seems to be a better mixer than any electronics or effects.

One question for you (however goofy it might seem)... for this concert, is this harmonica a typical harmonica (ie...that silvery thing you hold in your hands with little reeds in it) or one of those 'glass harmonicas' which is like funny glass dishes spinning while the player rubs the dishes to make them 'sing'. Just curious.


-dave

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by joaquin

Thanks steve!
What if you amplify the Harmonica in order to get the right balance in the Room and then just use your best stereo Pair to capture the performance?

Personally, I'm never happy with the sound when micing an acoustic ensemble with an amplified component in the room. There is just something about it that doesn't seem natural.

One question for you (however goofy it might seem)... for this concert, is this harmonica a typical harmonica (ie...that silvery thing you hold in your hands with little reeds in it) or one of those 'glass harmonicas' which is like funny glass dishes spinning while the player rubs the dishes to make them 'sing'. Just curious

In my experience, it was the kind of harmonica you would expect- the first kind you described.

--Ben

[joaquin]

Personally, I'm never happy with the sound when micing an acoustic ensemble with an amplified component in the room. There is just something about it that doesn't seem natural.

...well I do think that it's a bad Idea doe to the nature of the music to be recorded..but...that is the point!! We only know that it's going to be Bach...I dont know how many pieces he did write for Harmonica!? So, if the arrangement of the music leave the space to accommodate the difference in level for both instruments...we should be fine. Now, if it is an adaptacion where all lines in the counterpoint are meant to have an equal timbre and dynamic range...then we are for real troble
Any way. I have to agree, that in an acustic ensamble, amplification can be really annoying .......Joaquin.

[joaquin]

So Borut...what did you do?......can we listen to it?