Recording upright Bass

[henryrobinett]

I've seen this before here but I can't seem to find reference to it through the search function. Recording acoustic bass: I'm planning on using a DI (Milllenia TD-1) and a mic or two on a jazz gig. Was it you remote? On how you recorded the Conrad Herwig, "The Latin side of Miles?" So I have a live gig coming up recording my band this weekend. I'd like to use the DI, a mic stuffed in the f hole with some foam and/or another mic by the fingerboard. I haven't had a lot of luck mic'ing the basses due to unusable leaking, eq, phase smear. Drums overheads, piano and bass mic's fighting one another. It's not that I like the sound of a bass DI, but it becomes a compromise to save tones of the drums, piano, etc.. So my question is where do you put the mic in foam. Stuff it into the hole, bassist permitting, or underneath the strings on the bridge. Not enough rejection here and both are bound to have a lot of proximity effect. But I'm looking for rejection by placement rather than hypercard or gobos.

[StefanM]

I admit that rejection is a problem. But imho it is of no use putting
a mic in the f-hole. Put it under the bridge. (I like Sennheiser MKH
for that)
First look for good sound. Live with the bleed!

I often used a combination of pick-up and a U87 20cm in front of the
instrument to good results.

Stefan

[henryrobinett]

Thanks. I understand about getting the sound, the best sound first. My problem isn't with getting a good sound on bass. The problemn is what happens to the sound of the other instruments, especiallly drums and piano, when I bring the bass mic up, vs how much better the other instruments sound when I use DI more judiciously.

I'l try your suggestions this weekend.

[StefanM]

Let us know what you find.
If you have a chance try different pick-ups. They are not all (equally) evil.
If I remember correctly Fishman worked very well (- in said combination with
the U87)
The only instrument where "foam-stuffing" a mic into the instrument body
worked for me was on harp. But that was in combination with an outside mic too.
(I used two KM184 btw.)

Stefan

[toque-eh!]

first you want a good condensor with smooth off-axis sound. so that the leakage you do get is good sounding leakage. do record a DI signal if the sound of the pickup is not too horrible. some are suprisingly good. but only use as little as possble, of course.

second, do not put the mic in the f-hole of the bass. if you do so you are effectively mic'ing the back panel of the bass, and in addition to that the f-hole is a bass port. so you get shit sound - no tone and all uneven boom. mic the bridge near the sound post. don't compress! keep the bass player close to the drums (yes!) so that your leakage is not overly time delayed. if you get ride in your bass, make that your ride sound. mic the drums so that you can reduce the cymbals without losing the whole kit. (don't just use b/d and OH in other words)

third, if he has an amp in use, make sure it has as good a sound as possible coming out, and that it's not pointing to the back of the bass. your mic will pick it up bigtime. elevate it if possible, and ideally point it toward the drummer and keep it as quiet as possible for them to play correct dynamics together.

it's not easy! good luck!

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by toque-eh!

fkeep the bass player close to the drums (yes!) so that your leakage is not overly time delayed. if you get ride in your bass, make that your ride sound. mic the drums so that you can reduce the cymbals without losing the whole kit. (don't just use b/d and OH in other words)

Whoa! That's a great idea. I never thought of that. Thanks. I don't know about making it my whole ride sound . . . but . . .

[fifthcircle]

Couple of thoughts- Personally I try to keep the direct sound as minimal as possible, but on live gigs when you don't get the isolation, you often have to rely on it. I find that feeding the bass direct through a good fat limiter can help (my 2 favorites are the Vac Rac/Inward Connections limiter and the old UA 1076 tube limiter)

As for mics, the MKH 40 is a favorite and the Royer 122 have been working well for me lately. The Royer is great because I find the rear lobe isn't the issue, but rather sound that comes from the sides. The figure-8 pattern helps solve that issue. When you have a bass player that doesn't mind it, I'll also take a Schoeps or Neumann small diaphragm mic (MK4, KM140/184/84) and wrap it in foam and tuck it under the bridge. When you can get enough seperation, the U47 FET also is a great bass mic.

When using a microphone on a stand, suggest that the bass player use their body as a gobo. John Clayton does this very well (he has to as he doesn't even have a pickup on his instrument). Work with the nulls of the pickup pattern and face the mic so that the loudest source is in the null of the mic. As somebody earlier said, it is often about working with the bleed rather than eliminating it. If you can, a sheet of plexi between the drummer and the bassist also can be a beautiful thing in a recording like this and doesn't get in the way of the visuals and the sound on stage too much.

--Ben

[Remoteness]

An excellent thread on recording upright (slap) bass! Great suggestions folks -- keep them coming.

Henry,

IMO, recording the acoustic bass in a live environment is one of the most difficult instruments to capture correctly. That's why I use as many transducers as I can. I start off with at least four inputs and start striking tracks depending on the track count needed for the session.

On Conrad's "Another Kind of Blue - the Latin Side of Miles" we used four inputs. Most of the mics stayed the same throughout the three nights. I wasn't happy with the bass sound I was getting, so we changed out some of the bass inputs for the second and third nights. I was very pleased with the alteration. We started with a MD409 hanging over the amp, An SM98 surrounded with foam in the f-hole, a KM140 and a B&K on stands. We ended up with a MD441 on a stand pointing at Jon's fingers, the SM98 in the f hole and a KM140 (I've used KM84s in the past) in the bridge facing up suspended with rubber bands. We used to use a towel or foam for this trick but, many bass players didn't like it coupled to the bridge. The rubber bands worked out very well. I sometimes add a DI but try to avoid it whenever possible.

Stefam & Marc,

I hear you loud and clear and agree with you folks but, that f-hole mic has saved our arses more times then not. It's the not a perfect place to put a mic (for all the reasons you mentioned) but it can help shape the sound of the instrument when the band is kicking loud. I said the same thing until an engineer friend of mine turned me on to the concept. I EQ and blend a small amount of that mic when necessary. I don't use it when the other mics are doing their job. Those other instruments, especially the drums can wipeout the sound of the bass. Take a listen to Conrad's record to hear it in action.