string trio -> 5.1

[postdigital]

hullo,

i've been enjoying the diversity of opinion and advice about stuff on this site...

so here's what's up: i'm going to record a new piece for violin, viola, & cello in the near future.
the piece is a soundtrack for an otherwise silent film. (maybe there will be some voice over between different passages of music in the end)

for recording, i was trying to decide between just using 2 stereo pairs of mics (one for the group, one for the room)... and mix them to 4 channels

or to go ahead and spot mic each player, mix them to centre, right, left speakers directly, and use a stereo ambient recording of the room for the back 2 speakers....

the 'dedicated speaker for each player' paradigm i'm shooting for here kind of feels like a good plan actually. have simulated this kind of mix and dig it so far.

i'm kind of looking for a bit of a 'gouldian microscopic' approach to the music.

the aesthetic is for a 1920's idealism with a somewhat cassandra-complex induced sarcasm.

so, like, cinematically the music is much more of a 'main-character' than emotional background.

am thinking of renting maybe a VM1, U87, M149, or something for spot mics...

...and perhaps a pair of figure 8 for back in the room
(though i've never done this technique (am a big MS fan))

..tracking to a 788T probably..


uhm. anyway.
am interesting in any advice, comments, opinions.
thnx

[David Rick]

I think it's mostly an aesthetic decision: Are you putting the instruments into the room with the listener, or are you putting the listener into the room with the instruments? If the former is true, then close miking may be the way to go. But it's difficult to get a natural sound when close-miking violin, viola and cello; they just aren't typically heard that way. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, but be prepared to struggle with getting a good sound.

I did a similar project in surround for a five-piece ensemble accompanying silent film. This "orchestra" specialized in playing 1920's film scores live-to-picture. They were performing in a nice historic movie theater, and I wanted the sound of that space, and the sound of the audience reacting to the film. I ended up using a five-mic tree, plus rear ambiance mics. (I also put up a Trinnov single-point surround array, but it didn't make the cut, primarily due to my own inexperience -- it was my first time using that rig.) Details are here.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[postdigital]

hey, thanks,

Are you putting the instruments into the room with the listener, or are you putting the listener into the room with the instruments?

ah. yes. definitely putting the instruments into the room with the listener...
for the most part... there's also some ideas to do with the interactions between sound and image which i'm playing with.

was thinking that spacing the performers well on the stage will be important
...hey, i was kind of always assuming that figure8 mics are more immune to phase cancellation for some reason 0.o
but i suppose that's wrong.. hmm

[Roland]

Originally Posted by postdigital

hey, thanks,



ah. yes. definitely putting the instruments into the room with the listener...
for the most part... there's also some ideas to do with the interactions between sound and image which i'm playing with.

was thinking that spacing the performers well on the stage will be important
...hey, i was kind of always assuming that figure8 mics are more immune to phase cancellation for some reason 0.o
but i suppose that's wrong.. hmm

Fig 8 mic setup's work on phase cancellation, so you have to be careful here or you can end up with severe issues. The only problem I can forsee if you go the mic per instrument/instrument in it's own individual speaker across the front method, is that as your seating position changes within the listening environment you will get a changing balance. This may well be fine if it is only to be done as an experiment (in that case I would try and run two set-up's giving myself the opportunity to post produce different mixes later), however, much less satisfying if people are particularly interested in the musical side of the performance.

Regards


Roland

[postdigital]

Originally Posted by Roland

Fig 8 mic setup's work on phase cancellation, so you have to be careful here or you can end up with severe issues.

ah. 'k. thanks... must have been thinking of something else there

Originally Posted by Roland

The only problem I can forsee if you go the mic per instrument/instrument in it's own individual speaker across the front method, is that as your seating position changes within the listening environment you will get a changing balance.

yes, this is good. i'm sure that sometimes the audience is not to be trusted, but here it's a situation where the exhibition space itself and subjectivity should be more emphasized in general.

I would try and run two set-up's giving myself the opportunity to post produce different mixes later),

yes, couldn't agree more there, i guess that's by far the best option too.

however, much less satisfying if people are particularly interested in the musical side of the performance.

hmmm.. not sure if i could actually agree less in this case...

but i'm not exactly sure what you mean there.



(probably going to be up to the composer in the end)

[Roland]

Originally Posted by postdigital

hmmm.. not sure if i could actually agree less in this case...

but i'm not exactly sure what you mean there.



(probably going to be up to the composer in the end)

What I mean, is that if the musical balance changes with the listeners listening position it detracts from the musical performance as the balance isn't optimsed for the musics sake. However if this is an experimental thing it might not be important.

regards


Roland

[postdigital]

What I mean, is that if the musical balance changes with the listeners listening position it detracts from the musical performance as the balance isn't optimsed for the musics sake. However if this is an experimental thing it might not be important.

well it's kind of a walk-in / walk-out installation room with a film in the middle... so the audience gets to discover the best location for musical appreciation. a screening version would indeed be a different mix though.


Everyone is in the best seat. — John Cage (1812-1992)

[telejustin]

Why don't you just use a decca tree? You can adjust the stereo width by how the players are seated. With mic selection and placement you can control how dry the front presentation is.

Then, put a stereo pair back in the hall somewhere, pointed AWAY from the trio, aimed at the back of the hall. I'd suggest ORTF or spaced omni's, the later being preferred.

The result of this technique (in surround) is that as you move back in the speaker setup, you move back in the hall. Depending on mic choice, the front will be rather dry, with a very up-front yet natural sound than you'd get with your three close mics. This will also fold down to stereo really nicely and survive and Dolby encoding (which can just ruin your day).

Also, put an omni down low and near the cello, and use it to create your sub channel. Dial in to taste and enjoy!

[postdigital]

well. i made the recording:

two royers in blumlein up near the back
of the hall. . . running through a focusrite pre amp : /

tlm170 for viola, u87 for violin and another u87 for cello.

an akg414 on the floor behind the players. (nice tip )

it was quite a large and strangely dry room with a very high vaulted ceiling and a beautiful ancient wooden floor.

i'm still quite amazed at the clarity and smoothness of
the ribbon mics : )

the spot mics were all set to cardioid and placed for a nice balance between bleed and isolation of the instruments. very happy with how this turned out. no phase issues and a great close-up intimate sound (perfect for the fragility called for in parts of the music)

i did find the tlm170 to be the cleanest sounding mic overall, but i'm not so fond of how it handled the pizz. from the viola for some reason.

anyway. the 5.1 mix is super nice to listen to, particularly in how different frequencies seem to play across the room...

we edited different takes together in "soundtrack pro"
and that's where i'm now stuck : (

the software imported 4 channel wave files from the 744t
and 2 channel files from the 702t with no problem ... but exporting the edited timeline to 6 mono files just plain doesn't work properly... r

oh well... will hopefully figure something out (and SOON!!!) ghaaa

[postdigital]

ahh,

split the 744 and 702 files with waveagent

and then replaced all the edits, clip for clip, channel for channel in soundtrack pro.

finally was able to export as mono files properly.
(only crashed soundtrack 3 times)

[NorseHorse]

Hee. Nice!