Help on first gig!

[stewart81]

After playing round for a few years i finally got my act together and plan to do some proper recording. It's gonna be of the wind band i conduct with a choir and i'm wondering about the best set-up to use. Budget is minimal for now but i just want to have a go.
Equipment is
one sharp minidisc recorder(laptop running audacity at a push, i'd rather not as its works)
two takstar pcm-6100
two yoga x-y's (can be mono)
and a friends borrowed mixer
I planned an ORTF and two outriggers to try and balance the sound. Close miking the choir isn't an option either.
Any advice? I may have a go at recording some brass bands and a local orchestra i have contact with as well.
Cheers

[Roland]

Yes, don't waste your time. Forget ORTF/XY set-ups, at least hire a couple of reasonable microphones or invest in some kit. Even for a demo, just to listen back to the wind band/choir you should be using more than this, for a serious recording you at least need decent microphones, some relatively low noise mixer and/or microphone pre-amp and a recording system which hopefully will allow yourself some post production options. A good friend of mine made some wonderful recordings using minidisc's, however he had very good mic's and well designed mic amps and was an extremely experienced engineer. As you are recording the choir with a wind band, it quite likely may be necessary to have aditional choir mics for balance.

Regards


Roland

[boojum]

Originally Posted by stewart81

After playing round for a few years i finally got my act together and plan to do some proper recording. It's gonna be of the wind band i conduct with a choir and i'm wondering about the best set-up to use. Budget is minimal for now but i just want to have a go.
Equipment is
one sharp minidisc recorder(laptop running audacity at a push, i'd rather not as its works)
two takstar pcm-6100
two yoga x-y's (can be mono)
and a friends borrowed mixer
I planned an ORTF and two outriggers to try and balance the sound. Close miking the choir isn't an option either.
Any advice? I may have a go at recording some brass bands and a local orchestra i have contact with as well.
Cheers

I'd say go for it. You will gain experience. You will see what shortcomings your gear has. You will have fun. As long as you do not expect professional results it should be a fun project.

I stated with a SONY MZ-RH1 and a SONY M/S mic and got some fun pulls. I did upgrade into some pro equipment eventually. The recordings I did with that gear were not great, but it was part of my learning process.

Reading list: Bruce Bartlett's latest book on location recording. Eargle's books on the same subject. Go here for info on mic placement: http://www.rycote.com/assets/documen...nic%20Zoom.pdf. Hang around here as a lurker. Some of the best in the business are here.

BTW - Eargle is a big fan of ORTF with omni outriggers so you are not too far of the beam, bucko.

[NorseHorse]

I'd say "just go for it" too.

The quality that you'll get wouldn't be something that you would sell, but it's great experience and good memories.

Just don't forget to post a sample for us to listen too.

[stewart81]

Cheeers guys will give it a go. Will most likely go with the MD as the gig is in a club and don't fancy taking my laptop in (it belongs to my employer and one beer too many...tutt)
When its done will put something up but will need to figure out how to do that as well! The gig is early october so got a bit of time to play around too!
Had a glance at the paper quite interesting, will need to read it again but will use the advice in it. I do have access to a jecklin disc a friend has made, is it worth trying as I quite like the spatial effect for seperation? Also do i need to pan the tracks or just leave them centre and let the mics pick up the groups?

[Aural Reject]

Using a Jeckin Disc requires a couple of things - the first is a suitable acoustic, the second is a matched pair of (preferably nice) omnis. I'd suggest that you'll have neither from your original post.

If you haven't read it already, look here for an example write up of the technique.

By definition, if you're recording straight to stereo the left mic will go to the left channel and the right mic will go to the right channel. If you're mixing more than two microphones then they will need to be panned....as leaving them in the middle will give you mono reproduction. Using MS, the panning is done with the side signals.

[boojum]

I used a Jecklin disc I made from and LP and some foam and fake lambs wool. For mics I had a pair of Soundman omnis. It came out pretty well. Jecklin discs are a good way to record. Google Jecklin and you willl find plenty of info. I have to change the Jecklin I have to work with the DPA 4006 TL's I now have. Jecklin did his eperimants with the same mics so I guess it will work really well.

You are going to have fun, learn, and have some pretty good recordings. DGG will not be breaking down the door to buy them but that will not matter. You will be seeing how it is done and learning.

We all start somewhere. And few start with a top rung pro setup. Just have fun.

[Aural Reject]

Originally Posted by Roland

Forget ORTF/XY set-ups

Don't agree with that I'm afraid.

Originally Posted by Roland

at least hire a couple of reasonable microphones or invest in some kit.

But I do agree with that

Originally Posted by Roland

Even for a demo, just to listen back to the wind band/choir you should be using more than this

Why? I've heard some fantastic recordings done with just two microphones....or are you talking about kit restrictions?

Originally Posted by Roland

for a serious recording you at least need decent microphones, some relatively low noise mixer and/or microphone pre-amp and a recording system which hopefully will allow yourself some post production options.

Again, I've heard some great recordings done straight to stereo which may or may not have been multimiked. Granted a lot depends on the quality of the performance and their self balancing capabilities. Better kit would help though as you suggest.

Originally Posted by Roland

A good friend of mine made some wonderful recordings using minidisc's, however he had very good mic's and well designed mic amps and was an extremely experienced engineer. As you are recording the choir with a wind band, it quite likely may be necessary to have aditional choir mics for balance.

Quite possibly, indeed likely. However, if the venue had been suitable it's possible to get an audience perspective two mic stereo recording which should be balanced (if it's not, then the audience should be demanding their money back).

[0VU]

Originally Posted by stewart81

Any advice?

By all means 'have a go' and enjoy learning but don't, if the recording is in any way important (e.g. the performers/audience want to buy copies, or even just listen to it), make yourself the only source of a recording. Not until you've sorted out the basics and can produce a result which meets at least the most minimal standards which could be expected.

Exactly like conducting, recording looks easy if the people doing it are any good but it takes time to learn/acquire the knowledge and skills needed to do it to a worthwhile standard. You'll probably pick up the basics quickly enough but most musicians, even kids and amateurs, let alone professionals, have come to expect even amateur recordings to be up to scratch and you may not want to make any promises (even by implication) until you've done some practice. Again, rather like conducting, the results aren't really worth listening to until they meet a certain standard and achieving that isn't an instant thing that just happens by magic. i.e. Sure, play around and learn but until you gain some experience and ability, if you want a recording, hire a recording engineer/company with some decent gear and the knowledge and experience to use it. You can even learn from seeing what they do, how they do it and what they use. Or get some half decent gear and get out there and record anything and everything you possibly can - and do it as an engineer with your mind fully focussed on what you're doing, not a conductor who's recording something whilst doing something completely different. You'll likely reach the point where you can bung up some mics and get a half decent result whilst you ignore them and conduct but it isn't going to happen quickly and imo you'll learn a lot more slowly if you don't concentrate on the job in hand. You can also find that the time taken properly to set up the recording on performance day eats into your preparation time for the conducting and forms an unhelpful distraction..

Putting aside questions over gear quality (and there are some serious questions here!) I can't help saying that if you're conducting a wind band and choir, you're probably the last person who should be thinking about recording it. I have enough trouble getting around the idea that it's a remotely good idea for the engineer and producer to be one and the same person; the thought of the conductor being the engineer and producer simple doesn't work for me. All three jobs require a modicum of attention, concentration and time and how a conductor will find the time to set up the rig, run the recorders, and keep an eye and ear on the whole process whilst conducting anything is beyond me.

And at least get hold of some mics which don't sound like they're named after characters in science fiction B-movies! Oh, and as well as asking questions on web forums, read some articles/books about recording - starting with the most basic information like how to set up a stereo pair. It's one thing to know the names of techniques ORTF and outriggers but if the name is where your knowledge stops, as is seems to be, (sorry if that's harsh but the question about panning was rather fundamental) you need to get cracking on the learning curve if you want to do a decent recording in only a few months from now.

Anyway, I'll go and be Mr Grumpy elsewhere now. Do go for it, recording is fascinating and can be very rewarding but it's not something at which one can 'have a go' with instantly brilliant results. It does take work and time. Just like conducting - but somewhat more expensive! Good luck, and have fun.

[gareth.h.rees]

By all means 'have a go' and enjoy learning but don't, if the recording is in any way important (e.g. the performers/audience want to buy copies, or even just listen to it), make yourself the only source of a recording. Not until you've sorted out the basics and can produce a result which meets at least the most minimal standards which could be expected.

OVU, as a beginner, how do you suggest going about getting some recordings if you don't want people to listen? I myself am interested in getting into more of this type of work but as I'm not a classical musician I don't play in any groups that I could record for practice.

I have some contacts who could set up some "trial" recordings for me, but even then I'm sure the groups would be interested in hearing the result - but I'd be concerned that it wouldn't meet their expectations.

How did you start off? I've seen some of your posts here and over at Sound On Sound and you're clearly very experienced with this sort of thing! I've done mostly rock and jazz based stuff, but only one recording of a windband and one of a big band. Big bridge to cross!!

Thanks
Gareth

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Roland
Forget ORTF/XY set-ups

Originally Posted by Aural Reject

Don't agree with that I'm afraid.

I'm afraid that I didn't explain myself properly. What I meant was that the given techniques are the least of the posters problem, as 0VU pointed out above ORTF with outriggers, XY, AB pairs and alike are all well and good, but a bit pointless unless you really know what they are about and why you want to use them and if they are suitable for the given job.

Being that the original poster was suggesting using a couple of the cheapest mikes ever to be sold on ebay (so I might be exagerating a little) that to hire a decent pair might be well worth his while.

For what it's worth 0VU has eloquently expressed above what I so clumsily meant to say. Trying to learn to record when you are the conductor is IMHO not the way to go about it. Want a demo recording? Get a cheap Sony 909 MS mic and plug that into the minidisc, fine for a quick analysis and listen back.


Regards



Roland

[Aural Reject]

Originally Posted by Roland

Originally Posted by Roland
Forget ORTF/XY set-ups





I'm afraid that I didn't explain myself properly. What I meant was that the given techniques are the least of the posters problem, as 0VU pointed out above ORTF with outriggers, XY, AB pairs and alike are all well and good, but a bit pointless unless you really know what they are about and why you want to use them and if they are suitable for the given job.

Being that the original poster was suggesting using a couple of the cheapest mikes ever to be sold on ebay (so I might be exagerating a little) that to hire a decent pair might be well worth his while.

For what it's worth 0VU has eloquently expressed above what I so clumsily meant to say. Trying to learn to record when you are the conductor is IMHO not the way to go about it. Want a demo recording? Get a cheap Sony 909 MS mic and plug that into the minidisc, fine for a quick analysis and listen back.


Regards



Roland

Absolutely

Should've guessed that was what you meant, sorry!

[stewart81]

Thanks for all the advice, i should explain that i was asked to record the concert by the conductor of the choir we are taking part with. In an ideal world we wouldn't do it this way but we have the following reasons:
a)i frequently record rehearsals to mini disc and thats why the choir conductor asked me to do it when she came to one
b)we can' afford to hire anyone in as it is a charity concert with all the money going to the Poppy Appeal
c)i can't afford to spend the money on any gear, even hiring as i don't earn enough to do that and only have the stuff i have been given
d)when time allows i want to actually learn how to record other ensembles and over time accquire better gear.
I am not expecting something I can sell, simply an attempt that I can listen to and use as a starting point in a long term quest to understand recording and the choir conductor can have a listen to for reference.
After all these years training as a pro musician (trumpet player/conductor)i fully appreciate just how demanding it is to be an expert in anyone area and I am a complete newbie to this but we all have to start somewhere.
I should also admit that the question over panning was badly expressed, I am fully aware that the stereo pair do their own job, i've used that kind of set-up for many years since uni. What I was unsure of was the outriggers as I personally have never used them. I don't use A-B as it sounds very bitty on clarinet/flute and most venues we play two stands aren't an option. So that leaves ORTF or x-y and the ORTF always seems to sound better!Hope that clears up my question!
I'd love some decent mics, a nice pair of Earthworks would be lovely, all I need to do is rob the bank or ransom the wife! :-)

[Shureman]

As I understand your situation, you need a user friendly way to record great recordings intended for CD production for local distribution (orchestra members, choir members, auditioners, etc...).
Please listen to the selection on the link below.

http://www.divshare.com/download/8659794-7c2

I recorded it on September 24, 2009 with a rig entirely mounted at the top of a mic stand. No cables, not even an AC line. No need to moniter - I just turned it on 20 minutes before the concert, then sat in the audience and enjoyed the two hour performance. With ebay, the total cost of the rig would be about $700. Interested? Reach me at turnerwolbrette@prodigy.net