Pulling all this shit off LIVE?

[Benmrx]

OK, if anyone knows of a good forum/resource for this kind of stuff, please let me know. I posted a similar question in the Electronic Music Forum. Not looking to debate whether or not this is "cheating", which from my searches is all I really found.

I play in a 6 person band and trying to rangle our productions live can be a somewhat difficult task. Sometimes it goes great.....others....not so good.

On stage we've got: Drums, Bass, 2 Guitars, 3 Vocal Mics (1 main female vocal), MPC2000, Nord Rack + MIDI Keyboard Controller, Laptop running Ableton Live + AKAI MPD16, Glockenspiel, and a "percussion station". I'm also looking for a good way to run the vocals through some effects, and be able to tweak them on stage. Could just be a 2nd mic.

We're not playing to click, 90% of all the electronic stuff isn't BPM related. However, on 2 songs we're using MPC sequences for the drums.

Our main issue is all the electronic stuff (MPC, Laptop):

• on-stage monitoring (this is the biggy, and headphones simply won't work for us)
• set-up and tear down times
• having enough room on stage

We're not playing arenas here, but decent sized clubs. The monitor situation is usually pretty bad. It's a combination of us not having a solid setup, and the soundguy not knowing our songs. We do some instrument switching on stage as well (including drums), so there's got to be some way for us to move around.

Looking to hear from people that are doing similar shows with full bands, how you manage your on-stage monitoring, and what you're using to keep everything streamlined.

We tried using our own Mackie mixer to mix all the electronic elements down to a single output for the soundguy........seemed like a good idea at the time. However, during the set, a cable got ****ed with somehow, creating a nasty buzz from the laptop........meaning the soundguy had to cut the feed from the whole Mackie. Which meant no MPC, no Nord. Did I mention this was being broadcast live on the radio? However, so many other things went wrong that show it didn't really matter. All of 'em were things we could have easily avoided, but......live and learn.

One thing I'd like to try is bringing our own on-stage monitor for blasting the MPC sequences. I'm also starting to think that we just need to use a single laptop for everything with 8 outputs + a couple MIDI controllers, and keep the MPC + Nord as back-ups....just like you might have a spare guitar.

I should also say that the idea of having our own soundguy is probably out of the cards. We've already got 6 people in this band, which is pushing it IMO. We really need to be able to solve these issues on-stage, especially when it comes to touring.

Any help? Suggestions? It being 2008 and all, there's got to be some slick options that won't break the bank.

If it helps you can hear some very rough mixes at: MySpace.com - panda & angel - Seattle, Washington - Rock / Electronica / Experimental - www.myspace.com/pandaandangel

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Benmrx

OK, if anyone knows of a good forum/resource for this kind of stuff, please let me know.

Go straight to the Remote Possibilities forum.

[numrologst]

Hey Man,

As you already know, pulling of a complicated and sometimes sequenced show is rough.

For that matter, pulling off a great live show with 6 members all playing acoustic instruments can be rough.

That being said, its all a matter of having the right infrastructure in place and practing and rehearsing until you can't practice and rehearse anymore.

Again, with that being said... To pull of what you are talking about... You need 3 things. The band has got to be tight without all the auxiliary stuff. You need in ear monitors, preferably with a personalized mix that is controllable on stage. And you need your own FOH engineer.

If you are going to sequence anything, your drummer needs a click at the minimum.

The FOH engineer is a huge factor in this. He'll know how to mix the show, place the effects, and he might be able to trigger the sequences.

These kind of setups are hard to pull off if you aren't headlining the show. If you have 5 minutes to setup... again that is where the FOH engineer comes into play.

[travisbrown]

I've done shows like this.

I find running everything off a DAW a trainwreck waiting to happen. 99% of the time it works, but that one show where it's really, really important...like live to radio, it hiccoughs and screws you up. In that case I'd recommend a redundancy system. I think Madonna was running a running redundant Digital Performer setup on her last tour. Fallback was unnoticable, apparently.

If you are playing sequences, I much prefer playing with a single purpose appliance, like a HD24 for multitrack, or even an iPod for two track.

But when you say that stuff isn't BPM related, I'm guessing you aren't playing sequences, but triggering events and using virtual instruments? (Except for the MPC stuff). How are you triggering these events? So maybe the prerecorded multitrack route isn't best for you

Before using an HD24, I used a Kurzweil K2xxx series sampler to mix prerecorded samples with midi instruments. Again, just 'cause I prefer a dedicated device.

Monitoring -- I dunno. We used in-ear monitors because we played to clicks occasionally. On some tracks, only the drummer would need the click. Again, if you are only triggering events, then this isn't relevant to you.

I'd bring your own monitoring if you need more than what foldback from FOH can provide. But, then it's your responsibility. Hire a monitor mixer who knows your stuff, maybe.

[Benmrx]

I agree the FOH guy/girl is extremely important.....but....it's out of our hands. At least for now. Touring with 6 people is already hard enough, adding a 7th just isn't going to happen......again, at least for now.

When I say things aren't bpm related, I mean that we trigger back samples of performances we've already recorded, but broken those performances up into multiple samples. So, if I've recorded a piano part, we'll break that part up into multiple samples on each 1/8th beat. This way, as long as we're in the ballpark of the original tempo, the samples are on. It also means we can somewhat "improvise" during the live show. There's also a couple atmospheric type loops that don't follow a bpm.

There are a few longer samples that we use, that are coming from Ableton Live using the AKAI MPD16 pad controller, with one of the pads assigned to Abletons tap tempo. So as long as the person using that is constantly tapping along, everything works.

The only exception here is on 2 songs we use MPC sequences with drums and some backing tracks. 1 of the 2 is electronic drums through the whole song, with no regular acoustic drums, so no click needed. The other we use the MPC sequence with electronic drums for the first half, then real drums kick in for the second half, at which point the MPC sequence stops, and the person running the MPC starts to actually "play the sequence" on the pads. So, again, no click needed.

And we do indeed practice. As much as possible. Sometimes it's "vocals only practice" sometimes it's full band practices, but as per usual, our practice space is pretty bad, and our P.A. is even worse. We record our practices sometimes too so we can see where we're really at.

[BLUElightCory]

We keep it pretty simple. I bounce the keys/ear candy stuff to dual mono and put a click in one side. We put it on an Ipod and send the tracks to the P.A. and then the click side to a headphone amp for our drummer. We made a pedal board for the Ipod, headphone amp/mixer, and a D.I. for the tracks, and mount it on a cymbal stand. It works great and it's easy for the sound guys to handle.

[Benmrx]

Originally Posted by BLUElightCory

We keep it pretty simple. I bounce the keys/ear candy stuff to dual mono and put a click in one side. We put it on an Ipod and send the tracks to the P.A. and then the click side to a headphone amp for our drummer. We made a pedal board for the Ipod, headphone amp/mixer, and a D.I. for the tracks, and mount it on a cymbal stand. It works great and it's easy for the sound guys to handle.

Again, a system like this would only work for the 2 songs with MPC sequences going on. Everything else is actually being played.

[AndyUF2]

For live playback, I also recommend a dedicated machine. The band I tech for uses an Ipod and (sometimes, when we need to play older sequences we haven't yet transferred to Ipod) a Tascam MD-350 Minidisc unit.

The left side carries the sequence that goes to the PA; the right side carries the click track which goes to the drummer's in-ears via a Behringer headphone amp. The Minidisc send signal straight via XLR, while we use a special Radial DI built for this purpose.

As far as vocal FX - the best method is, of course, having your own engineer fly in the spot delays and whatnot, but what also helps is to send a parallel FX line. Out of our singer's wireless, I'll send two lines - one dry XLR mic signal to FOH that the house guy can compress, EQ, whatever, while the 1/4" out of the wireless (line level) goes into a TC Electronic M300 set for delay, 100% wet (to prevent phasing issues), then to the FOH via a DI.

I'll ask the engineer to set the fader carrying the delay to unity, then have him set the gain with me giving him (via the M300's trim pot) the max delay signal I'll ever use. It'll sound bizarre and TOO echoey at first during soundcheck, but don't be alarmed - the engineer only has to mute the channel between songs, when the singer is talking to the audience. During the song, he simply switches the delay channel on, and I manipulate the delay level myself, at the unit. OF COURSE, if the room is too ambient, he has the option of puling back the fader, but still, you get the best of both worlds (apologies to Sammy and Miley): you control the spots where delay comes in, and he has control over the mix.

You can even control this yourself, while you're playing, via a volume pedal (Low-Z).

I know this sound complicated, but it's much more simpler than you'd think, and then everyone is happy.

[Benmrx]

Thanks for the suggestion, but again......No Click Tracks. The idea of playing everything back from a 100% linear device (CD Player, Ipod, etc.) will NOT work.

We're an indie rock band. No wireless mics, usually the FOH guy is also the Monitor mix guy. Hiring our own engineer isn't in the cards right now.

[wax808]

Do you have to use the laptop?

I've seen a few very painful moments for all involved using a laptop.

I use my MPC to sequence everything when I play live. It works really well. The only unreliable piece is my Fusion which will sometimes have a MIDI problem communicating with my MPC. Of course I figured this out during my first live show.

[Benmrx]

Originally Posted by wax808

Do you have to use the laptop?

I've seen a few very painful moments for all involved using a laptop.

I use my MPC to sequence everything when I play live. It works really well. The only unreliable piece is my Fusion which will sometimes have a MIDI problem communicating with my MPC. Of course I figured this out during my first live show.

No, we don't have to use a laptop, but we do need an easy way to play back samples with a good tap tempo feature, and right now it's all we got that will work. I agree that having everything in one basket is a disaster waiting to happen. Which is why I was thinking we could keep the MPC as a dedicated back-up device.

[AndyUF2]

Originally Posted by Benmrx

Thanks for the suggestion, but again......No Click Tracks. The idea of playing everything back from a 100% linear device (CD Player, Ipod, etc.) will NOT work.

We're an indie rock band. No wireless mics, usually the FOH guy is also the Monitor mix guy. Hiring our own engineer isn't in the cards right now.

Well, then, there are no easy and/or cheap answers.

You could just load all the stuff into a hardware sampler, trigger it remotely via a MIDI pedal, and PRAY that either a) you hit the trigger at the precisely correct moment in the bar, and/or b) your drummer is close- enough-for-rock-n-roll, BPM wise.

You may not like it, but there's a reason top touring bands simply use playback, with the drummer on a click...or just get a backstage keyboardist.

I hate to say this, but a compromise is gonna have to be made somewhere in your situation.

[Paul Hammond]

Our show is up to at least 46 inputs with multiple acoustics, electrics, theremin, mando, two stereo keyboards, drum pad, timpani, gong, etc.

Our FOH engineer, Chris Chalfin, of Saturn Systems, runs with a Digidesign Venue console that we use for monitors, 9 different mixes total, all saved and recallable per different venues. Our first choice before that was Yamaha PM5D consoles.

Many shows prior to this were performed with house systems with less than adequate capabilities. The only way around it was extensive sound checks and line checks thanks to early load in times and our manager and FOH doing proper advances for all shows. Headlining slots also give you more flexibility to "call the shots". Be ultra patient and nice with all personnel involved. Be prepared to work fifteen hour plus days.

Good luck with your pursuit of getting your music to translate in the live concert venues you are performing in. PH

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Go straight to the Remote Possibilities forum.

I moved this thread to the Remote Possibilities forum for a little more action from our live performance / live show folks.

I know we have members that are doing similar shows, managing their on-stage monitoring and such.
Let us hear from you and how you have made it streamlined.

[theDBC]

Originally Posted by Benmrx

On stage we've got: Drums, Bass, 2 Guitars, 3 Vocal Mics (1 main female vocal), MPC2000, Nord Rack + MIDI Keyboard Controller, Laptop running Ableton Live + AKAI MPD16, Glockenspiel, and a "percussion station". I'm also looking for a good way to run the vocals through some effects, and be able to tweak them on stage. Could just be a 2nd mic.

• on-stage monitoring (this is the biggy, and headphones simply won't work for us)
• set-up and tear down times
• having enough room on stage

One thing I'd like to try is bringing our own on-stage monitor for blasting the MPC sequences. I'm also starting to think that we just need to use a single laptop for everything with 8 outputs + a couple MIDI controllers, and keep the MPC + Nord as back-ups....just like you might have a spare guitar.

The best thing you can do for yourself is to get some powered monitors. A lot of bands with setups similar to yours are using the roland keyboard amps (get a pair if everyone needs to hear the signal). You can have 4 inputs, balanced outs, on stage monitoring and less cable running to the stage box.
It helps reduce setup time and reduces headache for the engineer.
Roland U.S. - KC-550: Stereo Mixing Keyboard Amplifier

That said, don't run the beats and the keyboard meoldies/ leads from the same amp. When you do you give the engineer that mixed signal and when he inserts a compressor to protect his gear you lose the low end. If one person is running all the electronics, run the beats through your amp and then you can turn up the volume as needed without blowing the club's monitors or clouding up the vocals. Then send your keys direct to the house and monitor in the stage monitors.

As for room on stage, everyone fights that battle. Try bouncing your MPC sequences to wav and play from Ableton, or sample your percussion and play it from the pads on the MPC. Run your Ableton loops off the MPC and strike the laptop.
You have an MPC and MPD pads, are these both used by the same person? If so, get rid of the pad and use the MPC as a controller.

What kind of vocal effects are you wanting to adjust? Are you wanting to change delay/ reverb on some songs or are you wanting to tweak during the song? There are several processors that are designed to sit on the floor and can be controlled with a footswitch. Or you could add it to the keyboard rack and have him/her make the changes. That would also eliminate the need for a second mic, just hit the efx bypass between songs.

[Jim vanBergen]

If you're going to try and do this WITHOUT a great FOH or monitor engineer, then you have work cut out for you. You need to decide which is easier, 8 channels of playback with 8 direct boxes or a solid 2-mix of all those elements with a backup - could be computer, CD, or something else. Stuff fails, sure... but the cable going out is what it is- a rare problem from a live gig, and you had no one who could solve it for you at that time. That's what we get paid to do! It may not make sense, but you are rolling the dice- the same way some people insist on using eletronic bass and drum tracks.

if you use your own submixer, like a Mackie 1402, you can pump the XLR outs to FOH and use an aux send to a powered mixer onstage to fill.

Who gets stuck controlling this, the keyboard player? For most acts, it's either keyboard or drummer who is playing the tracks.

As far as vox EFX go, very few people do that for themselves onstage as they have no idea what it sounds like at FOH mix position. The Butthole Surfers are an exception, is this the best thing to do? It's very simple to use a second mic for a telephone effect or a specific delay time, but many of us who mix FOH carry our own racks of processors and know what song gets what effect, where, and how much. The hardest thing is knowing how much balance of one or the other needs to be out front to be blended right. Again, you could run a mic into a console with an aux send which returns an EFX device to the console and mix it yourself, but it's the gig for an engineer to do. You can do it yourself, but you'll never know exactly how much dry vs. wet signal you need for a different venue. Very tough call.

Hope these thoughts help!

JvB