Recording Orchestras in eastern Europe

[wolfhound]

For a long time I've been hearing about people from the US going to Poland, Romania, Hungary, etc. to save money on big orchestral sessions for film scores and such. Has anyone here done this and how did you set it up?

Thanks,
wolfie

[lowswing]

i'm interested as well as

[antti]

Never done it myself but I mixed one record where they'd recorded strings in Prague. Also, I tracked an album just before christmas and they will be doing strings for that in there.

How does it work?

You book an orchestra and a studio over there. Jump in a plane with a firewire drive and take your string arranger/conductor with you.

How much does it cost?

About 1/2 price you normally pay in the UK (MU standard). Plus flights & accommodation for whoever needs to be present.

How is the quality of players?

Varies a lot. You never get the same players on consequent days as they work in shifts (day on/day off or something like that). If you get lucky you'll get great results (feel/tuning/timing). If you get unlucky you might have to overdub some more at home or turn that sampler on while mixing.

How does it sound?

The one I mixed was ok. It was a 32-piece strings with some horns. Stereo sounded ok but not great. Fairly cold/sterile. Close mics were a little harsh and isolation between strings and horns could have been better. That one was recorded on DA88. These days they use Protools as well. They propably have 24-tracks too.

A producer friend of mine went over last year and found out them using Adats in this one particular studio. He didn't get the good players either and used 80% samples, 20% Prague Philharmonica in his final mix. He wasn't a very happy chap back then.

Good luck!

[wolfhound]

I found this:

http://praguerecording.com/

which looks pretty good.

has anybody tried this?

[MJGreene Audio]

I have mixed about 40 different sessions that have come back from Prague. I have had great success with the recordings over there but there are some things that the experienced guys have found that obtain better results. I have spoken to Gary Chester but I have not used him. I can say that the bids he gave me were great and right in line with the person I work with all the time. I would recommend Ted Hinckley: thinckley@velocitus.net
for all your Prague recording needs. He has been over many many times and we have gone through all the variables as far as players, engineers, formats, and the types of music that work with the players in Prague. This guy knows his stuff and is great to work with. Send him an email and go over you questions with him. Tell him Michael Greene refered you.

I can say that for most projects and styles if you understand the shortcomings you can obtain a great product.

Also feel free to email me if you have any questions that I might be able to answer.

Michael Greene
mjgreeneaudio@comcast.net

[wolfhound]

Thanks so much for your reply, Michael.

I will definitely contact Ted.

For the benefit of others too, what would you say the shortcomings were and how could one address them before hand?

Were the projects you mixed in the concert hall or in a studio?

Thanks again!
-wolfie

[MJGreene Audio]

Well, ok. Here is my short list (Long):

First off understand that most orchestra's in Europe tune to 442 or 443. They will tune down to 440 and they will tune the piano's down to 440 and I think that they have percussion that is tuned to 440 but, a trained musicians ear will gravitate to what they are used to hearing. With some exceptions I have had better luck with the tuning at their normal pitch than tuning down to 440. Ok, so I say that but I just finished mixing a film score last week with 60 players and everything was at 440 and they kicked ass. (Can you say that about orchestral players?) It was wonderful. But you should at least keep that in mind just in case.

In my opinion if you are writing stuff with heavy percussion, big bombastic brass, and big trumpet solos, you probably will have some trouble. The brass is ok, the percussion can be ok, the percussion instruments at Studio Schmecky where all the stuff I have mixed has been recorded is perhaps a bit older sounding. Not LA film score contemporary. That being said this last project was again great. More on this later. The brass is ok but not as tight as I would like to hear for some applications. Again keep in mind all my projects with big brass have been film score projects. The album projects I have mixed from there have been less intense and for the most part fine.
The woodwinds have seemed to be fine. I usually don't find to much to bitch about with the winds. Sometimes the odd pitch issue but if your on them it gets worked out.

They have had a piano player on a bunch of the stuff I have mixed who is wonderful. From the description an older lady (60's) with a nice feel and touch. The harp players I have heard are good but I am spoiled because we have a local player here who is as good or better than any I worked with when I lived in LA and is just awe inspiring, so I can say none of them have matched up to her but neither has most I have recorded. So I give the harp players an 7.5-8.5.

The best thing you can do is hire a conductor and a translator. Usually it is not very expensive and it really speeds things up. A couple of clients of mine have insisted on conducting themselves and although it went ok it is a bit of an extra step to get your point across.

The engineers you get are a big issue. I have had tracks from 4-5 different engineers. One guy was and engineer in his 60's, We called him old George, who when asked how many scores he has recorded he answered "Just scores? Well over 600" Needless to say when I get his tracks I just get a cup of coffee and know that I am going to have the greatest week of my life. His tracks define "Top Notch". They don't use him much anymore because he doesn't know Pro-Tools and if you want him you have to hire an operator also. (Only maybe 200-300 dollars a day if that) The other engineer , also named George, is great also. He knows the room and the gear and gets great results. Gives input if you wish and is a great guy from what I have heard. Some of the other guys are more Pro-Tools operators. They don't really know or understand the finesse of mic placement and don't hear or fix the "little issues" regarding the sound. I had a run of bad sessions useing one of these guys and begged and pleaded that they never use him again. The tracks were not great. Not unusable but not great. I always look at the engineer as another filter for mistakes and problems. It does the project a dis-service to just have a button pusher. Pay for and get the best you can. It will make everthing in your life easier after the fact.

The studio: Studio Schmecky is the studio that I have received all my tracks from. It is not a really live room but it has a nice sound to it. I have used my own mixing set up using the Decca Tree and surround mics they print and have gotten great results. As I have found with any orchestral music, if it is balanced in the room, and you don't favor the close mic's you can get a great balance and have yourself a great day. I should add that they just built a new control room and installed a new Amek Media 51 console and also shifted around the layout in the room and the new results are stunning. The best I have ever heard come out of that studio. It really showcased perhaps how bad the old Neve they had sounded. (Either a 8200 series or an original V series.) The new console with the Amek Rupert Neve pre's sound great and their older vintage mics don't suck either.

Those are the caviates for now. I will think about it and post more soon.

Thanks,
Michael Greene

[MJGreene Audio]

As an aside. If my spelling/grammer sucked it is because I was typing fast and it is late.

[wolfhound]

Thanks again Michael for the valuable information!!!

The music I will be recording will be largely subtle suspense cues, mainly strings and winds, some simple horns, only a couple cues will be big, a none big hollywood action cues, however we will be trying for some "extended technique" string fx.

The score has a lot of atmospheric piano and harp playing freely over the orchestra, and we wer ethinking it would be easier to have the orchestra play along with pre-recorded piano & harp samples rather than have to do tons of takes just to get those 2 instruments right. However that will mean that the tuning will have to be 440.

I could operate the ProTools so that's not a problem.

When you hire a conductor over there, do they get to prepare for the session in advance some how?

Thanks again!!!!
-wolfie

[MJGreene Audio]

Don't be put off by the 440 tuning issue. It just means that you are going to have to be really on top of it and make sure your getting what you want. (Isn't that the case with everything anyway?) Just pay very close attention to it. In thinking about all the stuff I have mixed I would have to say that most of it was probably 440. As for your description of your score, you should be in great shape. Ted can go over the specifics for sure but it sounds like something they could handle with no problems. I agree that you should pre-record the things you mentioned. I will give you better results and you never want to burn time with a full orchestra for one or two instruments. Here is the kicker though. The orchestra doesn't wear headphones. They might be able to but the sessions I have been involved with they have not. The conductor does and he gets click if you use it and the pre-records, but he actually drives the orchestra and very well I might add. It amazed me when I found out about it. Over there they actually look at and listen to the conductor. Something that I don't seem to see much in the states. It works very well.
As for the conductor prepartion? I don't know. You would have to ask Ted what the options are for that.

Let me know if you have anymore questions.
Michael Greene

[Lindell 2nd]

http://www.cnso.cz/index.php?nav=2&doc=93&lang=EN

[lowswing]

how fast is things going on there?
i'm uselly need to track orchestra arrengment to comp a singer/song writer not a big film score.
I remember i read in scott walker biography they track all the album in london in the 60's in one sessionwith a big session orchestra, that was 4-5 hours inc. half an hour official lunch break... "scott 3" is my referance sound...
I manage to track 2 songs a day here in germany and the musicians always complain sessions are too long...

[matucha]

The studio: Studio Schmecky is the studio that I have received all my tracks from. It is not a really live room but it has a nice sound to it. I have used my own mixing set up using the Decca Tree and surround mics they print and have gotten great results. As I have found with any orchestral music, if it is balanced in the room, and you don't favor the close mic's you can get a great balance and have yourself a great day. I should add that they just built a new control room and installed a new Amek Media 51 console and also shifted around the layout in the room and the new results are stunning. The best I have ever heard come out of that studio. It really showcased perhaps how bad the old Neve they had sounded. (Either a 8200 series or an original V series.) The new console with the Amek Rupert Neve pre's sound great and their older vintage mics don't suck either.

Well it is actually "Smecky" with a hook above the "c" letter and it means the Kennels ;-).

The old neve was serviced so many times it can't hold it's name anymore. OK you can track through it, no problem, but it is not the most pristine path. I was told some people (mostly from UK) take a little soundcraft desks with them and record through it's pres . The neve room has Tannoy 1200 monitors (and as far as I know they are moving them to the new amek room because of budget). The old room and the monitors gave me just general idea about the big things, but not any detail I'm used with my Adam S3A. Well, I'm curious about the new room, because it was under construction last time I was there.

The hall is old converted gym, everything feels pretty old there. There are at least 2 U47fets (maybe 4 I can't remember), about 8 old U87, many KM84 and KM184, some Shoeps, some old ribbons (few of them and don't look so trustworthy).

I'm no orchestral man, I just did some overdubs with piano/trumpet/vocals and some sampling (nice with decca 3, close-miced and spaced omni ) of marimba etc. IMO it is a good toyhouse when it comes to instruments, having this as a home studio... ahhh... nevermind

But be aware, I was told by the intern that alcohol is a big friend to anyone who's working there in the sound crew and maybe the luck with getting good or bad sound lies in this unprofessional phenomenon. (apologies to anyone who works there and doesn't drink during the sessions). Maybe it isn't wise to bring it up, but I was shocked to hear that.

If you need some more info, PM me...

[matucha]

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showt...5&pagenumber=2

...there are some photos I did there...

[adroit]

Hello

i might be helpful in this topic because i am the owner of such studio in Poland.
everyone is welcome to record, we are still expanding our equipment and possibilities.
also, I think we lack some "prague problems" mentioned by composers and engineers from USA. feel free to ask about any details, for now you can just watch some photos on our site www.studiocentrum.com (english version of the page very soon)

we got at least 2 good orchestras in contact, one of them is consisted of young ambitious musicians who are not bored with playing, modern music style aware, and speak english (i heard language barriers are common in Prague)

trying to be as flexible as client demands.

any questions??