room mics for a large chapel

[bannerj]

I've got the pleasure of leading music four times a week at a small college. We are multi-tracking all of our services and put out a live CD in the spring of each school year.

contemporary (full rock band) and traditional music styles
1200 person chapel
125+ foot ceiling
hard tile floors and no absorption on the ceiling panels either

Last year we used Oktava mc012s w/ cardiod capsules positioned behind the mains on stage pointed out across the students to each stage corner's opposite back corner. The tracks were usable but I found that neither had enough of the stage or of the students.

We are having the mics hung by the recordist in the music dept routed to our FOH board. He's got a pair of shure 81 like mics flown about 25 feet in front of the stage. I'm hoping that these will do fine for capturing the band from the mains.

I'm wondering now what I should use as a second pair? I've read about shotguns pointed from the stage back out at the audience on here. Is that the way to go? Which shotguns? These will be a permanent install.

Am I right in assuming that I want two different sets of stereo tracks, one of the music and one of the audience?

[joelpatterson]

Do you really "need" a set of mics devoted to the audience? Are there singalongs of which they are a vital part?

My instincts for loud band music in a huge chapel would be to *relatively* close mic the sound sources and try to minimize the whoosh of echoes they will be churning up.

Of course, my mileage may be terrible for what you're after, hard to really know without trying a few things and see what works best.

[bannerj]

oh yeah...everything is close miked too. I use the room mics to make it a definite live album. These are all sing along songs both contemporary and hymns. We use our organ some too. My goal is to have it sound full and clear with the close mics but also to give the listener a sense of being there. We achieved this on last year's record but it was hard with only the oktavas on the stage. I'm trying to improve my efficiency in mixing time because I also teach a couple classes.

[joelpatterson]

Well then, just running on instinct again, I'd suggest having a set of mics fairly well spread, at the lip of the stage--whatever that may be-- facing the crowd. Acting like the crowd had a conductor facing it, leading it, and the mics are to get that "performance."

[Shadow_7]

Is the ceiling really 125+'? That's like 10+ stories.

My instincts would say corners of the stage pointed at the opposite corners, like you did. Although not literally at the corner for the mics, perhaps 3' or more in from the walls. Or perhaps some OMNIs hanging high up(50%-100% as high as it is from the front of the stage to the back of the room) and pointed straight down at the front edge of the stage(25% in from the side walls depending on the size of the stage and actual height). Just a guess though, never done that myself. Perhaps a bit closer to the audience if we're talking 1200 in a 12,000 seat space.

Which might also depend on the audience. Are they singing proudly from memory projecting to the top curtain of the stage? (clear line of sight between sound source and potential mics) Or heads towards the ground singing into a Hymnal? (absorbed by the person in front, with maybe some reflection off the Hymnal)

I really wouldn't try to capture the audience from the stage itself. On stage accoustics can be quite horrid in some venues. The further from the front of the stage, the worse it gets.

[NorseHorse]

You should give some of your friends in the audience digital handheld recorders to have for the whole show! Then you get LOTS of interested crowd noise. Kinda like those projects where people at weddings are given disposable cameras to take pictures with... it'd be interesting.

[loujudson]

Just an idea: Use a stereo ribbon between the stage and the audience (not a congregation???) to pick up the entire room in stereo withouyt any phase cancellation. It works great in some rooms, not in others, but I had excellent recordings of concerts in Graqce cathedral this way. They were vocalists, not rocj bands, but the room sounded fabulous!'

Lou

[bannerj]

oopssss...yeah I may have over estimated the the height of the ceiling. I'm terrible at guessing distance.

It is 1200 people in roughly a 1300 seat venue.

And yeah, congregation...students...audience...whatever you prefer. I don't think of this as a performance. That is exactly why I want the sound of the room and the students singing.

So, what kind of mics are we talking here? I need to make some purchases soon. School starts in three weeks.

Thanks for all your thoughts and suggestions. Really helpful

[Corran]

You could just get some omni caps for your Oktava's. Don't underestimate the mics you already have! A Blumlein setup would be cool too, as someone suggested, but instead of ribbons (you'd have to also get a pair of really nice preamps) I would vote for a condenser pair, maybe the Avant stereo mic. I think it's around $600??

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by Corran

... maybe the Avant stereo mic. I think it's around $600??

Good call, that beastie has terrific "realism" for a hall with a crowd, where you want the capture the nuances, overtones and vibe of the whole scene.