Big Band Recording in rehearsal space.

PapillonIrl · 10th February 2005

Ok, I've done the search and there is some useful advice here about recording big band type music, but here's a slightly different scenario.

I will be recording the band here:

www.rubystudios.net

There are a good few rehearsal rooms here, which I will have access to. There is a control room setup already. All rooms have a ceiling height of just over eight foot.

I do FOH for these guys so I know what to expect.

Four piece trumpet section
Four piece bone section
Five peice sax section

V. Good electric bass player
V. good drummer
Good guitar player (Ess w/Twin)
Excellent piano/organ player (no piano available here though, will be using a module.

Various vocalists

I figure I will use the largest room in the place, which happens to be the lounge area (the one with the pool table in the pictures). I plan to record rhythm section and brass parts together, and overdub vocals and solos.

Mic's available:

AKG C414 B-ULS ( x 2)
AKG C1000 ( x 2 )
MXL 603s (Stereo pair)
Sennheiser MD421-U5
Sennheiser e602
Sennheiser e604
Sennheiser e609
Shure/Unidyne III ( x 2 )
Shure Beta 58 (x2)
Shure SM58 ( x2 )
Shure SM57 ( x2 )
Shure KSM32
Shure KSM44
Studio Projects C1
Behringer ECM8000 ( x 2 )
Beyerdynamic M400

The keyboard player, bass player, and guitar player will be playing through their respective amps.

The area I'm thinking about tracking in is about 18ft X 25ft X 8.5 ft.

My main worry is capturing a good/balanced brass sound without to much bleed. I'm not sure which tracks they are doing yet, but I think they will probably be standards. They also do newer seventies stuff like Stevie Wonder etc.

As you can see, individual micing of brass intruments is not an option. When I do front of house, I normally use 1 mic to every 2 brass instruments, but I wonder will this create a phasey mess in here with the band so close to each other, and guitar/keyboard amps being used.

And on top of that, this has to be put down to 10 channels !

Anyone in the mood for sharing some thoughts on this ?

Cheers,

Nathan

paulhurt · 12th February 2005

As far as I can see, the only bleed you have to worry about especially is the brass section into the drum overheads and vocal mic (latter not a giant problem, depending on the singer - have them face the brass section so null rejects section a bit, use distance, absorber?), and drums into the brass mics.

I would tend to use a stereo pair of some description (maybe ORTF, maybe ORTF hypers!, maybe M-S) aimed specfically to pick up the brass as a section. Then you can close mic drums, guitar, and DI the rest.

Much will depend on the sound of the room of course. Playing with the position of that pair will be critical to your overall sound.

If it's classic big band you're after, drums aren't normally very upfront in the mix. So, assuming your nicest drum sound is in the close mics and overheads, your limiting factor to getting a good drum sound at mix time will be how much spill makes it into the main pair covering the horns. Experiment with limiting the amount of HF trash from the cymbals that gets into the main brass pair by suspending some kind of absorber (dare I suggest a duvet?) between the drums and the brass mics. You can HPF the brass pair a little which should clean things up (e.g. bass, kick drum spill).

I wouldn't bother trying to mic horns individually and then attempt to mix for an ensemble sound - that can easily turn into a nightmare of off-axis spill and is very dependent on players keeping consistently on-mic. Instead, just position close mics for solos. Identify who has solos on which tunes and reposition your two or three best LD mics for each tune accordingly. C414s in hyper seem to work well for me, isolates player better than your average cardiod. Good on trumpet for some reason.

The other spill concern is monitoring. In an ideal world you use cans and isolation booths, but I imagine that's not an option. Are you having to use a PA so the singer & keyboard player can hear themselves? Pick carefully where you place monitors/PA cabs/backline - you want to try to avoid having them blasting into your main brass pair. Generally, the player needs to hear themselves louder than anyone else does, so the bass player for instance should be right on top of their amp so that it's loud enough for them, quiet for everyone else. Keep monitor levels as quiet as you can get away with.

The singer would likely appreciate cans so they can hear themselves as loud as they like, in which case you can have them very low in any foldback monitors, just so players can make them out for reference.

Hope that helps. Still, a bit of a struggle to get this into 10 tracks. I'd suggest:

1+2 horns overall
3 solo spot mics mixed to one track (unlikely to all be soloing simultaneously!)
4 BD
5 Snare
6 mono SDC overhead
7 Electric Bass - DI
8 Keys - DI and submixed if necessary
9 Gtr - miked up
10 vox

Hope this gives you food for thought. At the end of the day, I'm just guessing at what you're likely to encounter, so YMMV. It sounds like a challenge, but done carefully it could turn out very respectable. Let us know how it goes (hope you've got lots of time in there!)

PapillonIrl · 12th February 2005

Just got back from a gig at the opposite side of the country, gotta kip now. Just wanted to thank you for very helpful and detailed post.

Will get back to you with a non-sleep deprivated response tomorrow.

Cheers,

Nathan

PapillonIrl · 12th February 2005

Great advice there.

I was hoping to overdub solos and vocals, but the bandleader is on a bit of a purist buzz, and may want it all taken live. He will definately be after a 'traditional' big band sound on the cheap.

Here is my plan, alot of it based on your post, shout if you think I am creating a problem for myself in any way.

Brass section and rhythm section placed in opposite extremes of the room. Alternatively there is a actually an l-shape to the room also that I may be able to get the rhythm section into, to further help with bleed.

Two C414's in cardioid/ORTF with drums and amps placed in null(ish) points on other side of room as much as possible.

Heavy curtain hung in front of drums.

Spot mics for solos (Prob 421, KSM32, or KSM44 depending on instrument) and cans for vocalist if it's all taken live. (Band read from sheets, so may not really need guide vox)

The only thing I'm not sure of is if I have the room to back the ORTF pair up enough to capture a balanced sound that's not dominated by the sax section/ Won't I need 10 - 15 feet for that ?

I should have a reasonable amount of time to experiment, it's not really a stressful one as I know them pretty well, but I'd like to get the best results possible.

Many thanks for your help !

Nathan

paulhurt · 12th February 2005

The only thing I was going to add was that all these anti-spill measures are good, but getting the performance for me comes first. It's vital that the players are in their "comfort zone".

Watch how and where you position the sections. If the horns and rhythm section feel out of touch with each other, you could have a problem. You might get the sound but not the performance, and without the performance the best sound in the world means nothing (in my opinion anyway).

On the other hand it may not bother them at all! Just watch out for timing and "togetherness" issues if players are separated by a distance.

Jon Kubis · 14th February 2005

Most people tend to lean toward a single stereo pair for the brass... yick! Maybe for the old-school big band sound, but pretty much all contemporary big band albums nowadays use close mics alongside a stereo pair for brass.

Last couple sessions at Capitol I've seen
2 RCA 44 ribbons split between the 4 trumpets
4 RCA 44 ribbons, one on each bone
5 U67's, one on each sax.

Also had really good luck with 2 R121s on the trumpets
4 RE-20s on bones
and whatever nice LDCs you have for saxes.

The worst bleed problems I've had were horns/drums into the piano, and horns into drums.

Sorry for the quick response... gotta run

10th February 2005	#1
PapillonIrl Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ireland Posts: 626 Thread Starter	Big Band Recording in rehearsal space. Ok, I've done the search and there is some useful advice here about recording big band type music, but here's a slightly different scenario. I will be recording the band here: www.rubystudios.net There are a good few rehearsal rooms here, which I will have access to. There is a control room setup already. All rooms have a ceiling height of just over eight foot. I do FOH for these guys so I know what to expect. Four piece trumpet section Four piece bone section Five peice sax section V. Good electric bass player V. good drummer Good guitar player (Ess w/Twin) Excellent piano/organ player (no piano available here though, will be using a module. Various vocalists I figure I will use the largest room in the place, which happens to be the lounge area (the one with the pool table in the pictures). I plan to record rhythm section and brass parts together, and overdub vocals and solos. Mic's available: AKG C414 B-ULS ( x 2) AKG C1000 ( x 2 ) MXL 603s (Stereo pair) Sennheiser MD421-U5 Sennheiser e602 Sennheiser e604 Sennheiser e609 Shure/Unidyne III ( x 2 ) Shure Beta 58 (x2) Shure SM58 ( x2 ) Shure SM57 ( x2 ) Shure KSM32 Shure KSM44 Studio Projects C1 Behringer ECM8000 ( x 2 ) Beyerdynamic M400 The keyboard player, bass player, and guitar player will be playing through their respective amps. The area I'm thinking about tracking in is about 18ft X 25ft X 8.5 ft. My main worry is capturing a good/balanced brass sound without to much bleed. I'm not sure which tracks they are doing yet, but I think they will probably be standards. They also do newer seventies stuff like Stevie Wonder etc. As you can see, individual micing of brass intruments is not an option. When I do front of house, I normally use 1 mic to every 2 brass instruments, but I wonder will this create a phasey mess in here with the band so close to each other, and guitar/keyboard amps being used. And on top of that, this has to be put down to 10 channels ! Anyone in the mood for sharing some thoughts on this ? Cheers, Nathan __________________ ''Because your candle burns too bright, well I almost forgot it was twilight' Elliott Smith

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12th February 2005	#2
paulhurt Gear interested Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: London, UK Posts: 25	As far as I can see, the only bleed you have to worry about especially is the brass section into the drum overheads and vocal mic (latter not a giant problem, depending on the singer - have them face the brass section so null rejects section a bit, use distance, absorber?), and drums into the brass mics. I would tend to use a stereo pair of some description (maybe ORTF, maybe ORTF hypers!, maybe M-S) aimed specfically to pick up the brass as a section. Then you can close mic drums, guitar, and DI the rest. Much will depend on the sound of the room of course. Playing with the position of that pair will be critical to your overall sound. If it's classic big band you're after, drums aren't normally very upfront in the mix. So, assuming your nicest drum sound is in the close mics and overheads, your limiting factor to getting a good drum sound at mix time will be how much spill makes it into the main pair covering the horns. Experiment with limiting the amount of HF trash from the cymbals that gets into the main brass pair by suspending some kind of absorber (dare I suggest a duvet?) between the drums and the brass mics. You can HPF the brass pair a little which should clean things up (e.g. bass, kick drum spill). I wouldn't bother trying to mic horns individually and then attempt to mix for an ensemble sound - that can easily turn into a nightmare of off-axis spill and is very dependent on players keeping consistently on-mic. Instead, just position close mics for solos. Identify who has solos on which tunes and reposition your two or three best LD mics for each tune accordingly. C414s in hyper seem to work well for me, isolates player better than your average cardiod. Good on trumpet for some reason. The other spill concern is monitoring. In an ideal world you use cans and isolation booths, but I imagine that's not an option. Are you having to use a PA so the singer & keyboard player can hear themselves? Pick carefully where you place monitors/PA cabs/backline - you want to try to avoid having them blasting into your main brass pair. Generally, the player needs to hear themselves louder than anyone else does, so the bass player for instance should be right on top of their amp so that it's loud enough for them, quiet for everyone else. Keep monitor levels as quiet as you can get away with. The singer would likely appreciate cans so they can hear themselves as loud as they like, in which case you can have them very low in any foldback monitors, just so players can make them out for reference. Hope that helps. Still, a bit of a struggle to get this into 10 tracks. I'd suggest: 1+2 horns overall 3 solo spot mics mixed to one track (unlikely to all be soloing simultaneously!) 4 BD 5 Snare 6 mono SDC overhead 7 Electric Bass - DI 8 Keys - DI and submixed if necessary 9 Gtr - miked up 10 vox Hope this gives you food for thought. At the end of the day, I'm just guessing at what you're likely to encounter, so YMMV. It sounds like a challenge, but done carefully it could turn out very respectable. Let us know how it goes (hope you've got lots of time in there!)

14th February 2005	#6
Jon Kubis Gear interested Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 26	Most people tend to lean toward a single stereo pair for the brass... yick! Maybe for the old-school big band sound, but pretty much all contemporary big band albums nowadays use close mics alongside a stereo pair for brass. Last couple sessions at Capitol I've seen 2 RCA 44 ribbons split between the 4 trumpets 4 RCA 44 ribbons, one on each bone 5 U67's, one on each sax. Also had really good luck with 2 R121s on the trumpets 4 RE-20s on bones and whatever nice LDCs you have for saxes. The worst bleed problems I've had were horns/drums into the piano, and horns into drums. Sorry for the quick response... gotta run