Info on Herbie Hancock albums Headhunters, Thrust etc.

[mizzle]

Hi all,
I was wondering if anyone out there has any knowledge about the making of Herbie's albums on Columbia such as Headhunters, Thrust, Man-Child etc......

I have searched extensively in hopes of finding anything about these albums but the only thing I have come up with so far is that they are produced by David Rubinson and that they were done on a Trident A range. Any info would be helpful.
Thanks,
-Craig

[dave-G]

"Head Hunters", "Thrust" and "Man-Child" (and lots of other HH records) were engineered by my friend and mentor Fred Catero.. .. Probaby at Wally Heider's (Hyde Street) in San Francisco... or maybe at the Automatt. FWIW, if they were at the Automatt, it probably would have been a Trident TSM...

Nonetheless.. I'd ask Fred to comment, but 1. I haven't talked to him in a couple of months.. 2. I know he's not a big internet guy, and 3. Fred is a truly intuitive engineer who is more likely to fondly recall the people and the music than the gear.

Although I certainly wasn't around to work with him on these records in particular (I was in grade school), I remember setting up for tracking sessions with him where he'd ask me to put up "a condenser" on something, or to patch in "a limiter" .. If I asked him for clarification -- ie: "you want the U47, a 414, an 84? or what?" he'd reply "whatever you want". This trusting approach that left me a lot of leeway to conrtibute some ideas, and left Fred to do his thing which was to react to what he was hearing... always towards the goal of balancing sounds and tones and building a mix (rather than focusing exclusively on individual tones). He had an arranger's mentality towards sound when tracking, nailed his "sounds" quickly and with little hesitation or toil, and moved on.

Anyway, I'm getting off on a tangent... but that last bit leads me to the point I was trying to make.. Those records sound the way they do because Fred was a great engineer when it came to being ready, having great sounds quickly, making musicians comfortable and well-cued, etc .. Thus, he became a great conduit for keeping the artist's and producer's ideas flowing .. and that's where those albums are coming from.

My experience working with him led me (by his example) to the philosophy that good engineers make things sound good, but great ones make things sound good--almost in the background--and in such a way that everyone involved in the project hears a little bit of their influence in the end result.

I like those records, too!
-dave

[Rezman]

Still the most enjoyable evrsion of watermelon Man I've heard.
Man, I've thrashed that albumn!

[mizzle]

Thank you for sharing Dave-G.
Very good work your friend does!
As far as the Headhunters and Thrust albums go they would have to be done on an A range or B range (if a Trident at all) as they were recorded in '74. Anyway, I am very curious as there is a very large difference in sound between Herbie's Warner recordings and the Colombia recordings that immediately follow. It seems that the overall style of the recordings changed alot (espescially in the rhythm section). I understand the musical differences pretty well but hopefully I can find out more about the sound quality as I am fascinated by the atmosphere that pervades.
-Craig

[Crandall1]

I always thought Headhunters and Thrust were recorded at Pat Gleeson's Different Fur studio in San Francisco. FWIW, there is an excellent picture of him tweaking Mr. Gleeson's E-mu modular in Mark Vail's Vintage Synthesizers book.

In any case, different engineers, different producers, different musicians, different instrumentation, different style of music altogether; I suppose that's why they sound different. The only thing the two "periods" have in common is that Herbie plays piano throughout. I'll tell you what, though. The first solo in Chameleon does it for me more than all of Maiden Voyage. Which isn't to say the latter is a bad record at all. I mean, it's Kind Of Blue without Miles, for all intents and purposes. But you can kind of tell that the musicians had an inkling they were on to something new when they were making Headhunters.

Chris Randall
Audio Damage, Inc.
http://www.audiodamage.com

[mizzle]

Hi Crandall,
You may be thinking of the wrong era Herbie.
Maiden Voyage is mid-Blue Note. The Warner recordings are of his group Mwandishi and feature electric instruments and early "fusion": basically studies for Headhunters as they explore both jazz/funk and synth atmospheres. There is also a gritty production feel as opposed to the albums that follow (dryer sound overall).
-Craig

[Burt]

just thought I'd revive this thread as I've managed to get some info regarding these recordings.

Herbie Hancock's Mwandishi period albums were Mwandishi, Crossings and Sextant.

As Mizzle points out these have a markedly different sound to the albums that follow (the Headhunters period). The radical change in sound from Sextant to Headhunters was down to a change in personnel, more stripped down arrangements and a deliberate emphasis on a dry, dampened drum sound.

All these albums were recorded in the same locations with the same engineer and producer David Rubinson:

Mwandishi (Dec. 1970) was recorded upstairs at Wally Heider S.F. Studio C using a custom API Frank DeMedio built console.

Crossings (Feb. 1972) was recorded at Pacific Recording, San Mateo using a Quad Eight console.

Sextant (early 1973) was recorded back at Wally Heider's - probably in Studio A this time on another Quad Eight. Same goes for Headhunters (late 1973) and Thrust (1974).

Fred Catero engineered these sessions except for the synth and mellotron overdubs which were done at Pat Gleeson's Different Fur Studios using a custom desk he and studio partner John Viera had put together using Spectrasonics cards.

KD

[Vari-Mu]

Originally Posted by mizzle

Hi Crandall,
You may be thinking of the wrong era Herbie.
Maiden Voyage is mid-Blue Note. The Warner recordings are of his group Mwandishi and feature electric instruments and early "fusion": basically studies for Headhunters as they explore both jazz/funk and synth atmospheres. There is also a gritty production feel as opposed to the albums that follow (dryer sound overall).
-Craig

I don't think you can categorise the Mwandishi recordings simply as studies for the Headhunters stuff. These two periods of Herbies' music are different IMO....

Except for Herbie himself, the people involved were very different as was the aesthetic. There are superficial similarities , but the Mwandishi records are much more daring in terms of harmony , textures and arrangements . Also Mwandishi was an actual working jazz group as opposed to Headhunters which was basically a studio project. Herbie himself says that Headhunters represented a very concious change of direction for him because he felt the music he was making with Mwandishi was getting so abstract that the general public couldn't get into it.

I like Headhunters but those Mwandishi records ( and the other stuff that band produced ) are some of my favourite music of all time. Fusion without noodling.

Anyway, to contribute something other than opinion to the thread, Mwandishi also recorded a couple of albums under Eddie Hendersons' name for Capricorn Records at Different Fur in 1973/ 74.


Cheers

Vari-Mu

[dbbubba]

Headhunters does sound like a Quad Eight goint o 16 track 15 ips non Dolby.
I was just listening to it.

... and here I was thinking that Herbie used that Bose Wave Radio for monitoring.
(the little suckers do sound pretty cool for a plastic radio)

[kevinc]

Originally Posted by dave-G

"Head Hunters", "Thrust" and "Man-Child" (and lots of other HH records) were engineered by my friend and mentor Fred Catero.. .. Probaby at Wally Heider's (Hyde Street) in San Francisco... or maybe at the Automatt. FWIW, if they were at the Automatt, it probably would have been a Trident TSM...

Nonetheless.. I'd ask Fred to comment, but 1. I haven't talked to him in a couple of months.. 2. I know he's not a big internet guy, and 3. Fred is a truly intuitive engineer who is more likely to fondly recall the people and the music than the gear.

Although I certainly wasn't around to work with him on these records in particular (I was in grade school), I remember setting up for tracking sessions with him where he'd ask me to put up "a condenser" on something, or to patch in "a limiter" .. If I asked him for clarification -- ie: "you want the U47, a 414, an 84? or what?" he'd reply "whatever you want". This trusting approach that left me a lot of leeway to conrtibute some ideas, and left Fred to do his thing which was to react to what he was hearing... always towards the goal of balancing sounds and tones and building a mix (rather than focusing exclusively on individual tones). He had an arranger's mentality towards sound when tracking, nailed his "sounds" quickly and with little hesitation or toil, and moved on.

Anyway, I'm getting off on a tangent... but that last bit leads me to the point I was trying to make.. Those records sound the way they do because Fred was a great engineer when it came to being ready, having great sounds quickly, making musicians comfortable and well-cued, etc .. Thus, he became a great conduit for keeping the artist's and producer's ideas flowing .. and that's where those albums are coming from.

My experience working with him led me (by his example) to the philosophy that good engineers make things sound good, but great ones make things sound good--almost in the background--and in such a way that everyone involved in the project hears a little bit of their influence in the end result.

I like those records, too!
-dave

Which ones did you work on Dave ?

I`m a big fan of Herbies.

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by Vari-Mu

I like Headhunters but those Mwandishi records ( and the other stuff that band produced ) are some of my favourite music of all time. Fusion without noodling.

Interesting perspective. It would never occur to me to perceive the Mwandishi recordings as "Fusion without noodling" because those pieces are too linear & organic; the compositions don't have nearly enough structural juxtaposition to meet my personal definition of Fusion. (Meaning the Fusion genre, not the literal definition of "fusion".)

Rather, I found myself attracted to the Mwandishi-era stuff because it struck me as "Avant-garde with a groove". It was like 60's-era Ornette Coleman meets the electronic compositions of Morton Subotnik or Milton Babbit layered over infectious African folk musics and proto-funk.

But in either case, it's remarkably engaging music. As is the Headhunters stuff. Man, I could listen to Thrust all day long...oh, wait, I did! (all thru college)

[AcousticsampleS]

Hi guys i'm sorry to wake that thread up like that, but as a drummer and bass player, this music, especially the headhunters album is the best album i've been listening to... (i like most of herbies album from this period, before he meets the electronic stuff).
I'v been searching for a long time and never found anything that sounded like it. Do any of you know of some albums, band that would sound "like it".
I know it's much to say, because nothing sounds like that and the compositions are so perfect and rythms are so simple but complex at the same time, but anything that sounds remotely like it would make me happy

[mizzle]

->> Ramsey Lewis- Sun Goddess <<-

You also might want to try some early Bob James.

[AcousticsampleS]

Thanks! this sounds very good, but actually i did not find those "crazy"grooves that i'm looking for...

[ezraz]

michael urbaniak's "fusion" record is amazing to me. to mix american jazz experiments with slavic folk songs and signatures is a killer combination. put the vocal fx on top with the electric violin and this record freaks me out often.

[ray_subsonic]

Originally Posted by mizzle

->> Ramsey Lewis- Sun Goddess <<-

You also might want to try some early Bob James.

All really beautiful ... Love "Sun Goddess" .. A Stellar collaboration between Ramsey, Teo Macero, and Earth Wind & Fire ..

[gsbe]

Groove Collective often touches on the sounds of the Headhunter records. Check out tunes like "Fly", "Caterpillar", "Ms Grier", "Saturday Afternoon" and "KOG". Groove Collective also released a cover version of "Speak Like A Child" on their Grammy-nominated "People People Music Music" album.

The Headhunters have 4 studio albums and 1 live album, afaik: Straight From The Gate, Thrust, Survival of the Fittest, Headhunters and Flood. All badass. There are a few tracks on the "Death Wish" soundtrack, also. I'm not counting their 1998 album, btw.

Other recommendations:

• Cinematic Orchestra
• Lettuce
• David Axelrod's album "Seriously Deep"
• Eddie Harris
• Harvey Mason's album "Marching in the Street"
• Eddie Henderson's album "Heritage"
• Mike Clark/Paul Jackson album "Funk Stops Here"
• Mike Clark's album "Actual Proof"
• Gene Harris records from 76-78
• Bennie Maupin's album "The Jewel in the Lotus"

[gsbe]

[jeremyglover]

Wow, this is awesome, any more info on the recordings would be great.