better for room mic: Earthworks SR30 or KM184

[joenovice]

This is a college recital hall. It has two room mics (KM 184) with a placement about 15 feet from the stage, 12 feet high and a configuration similar to XY but about 9in apart. (on a bar)

I didn't install them and don't know if they have been placed at or near the critical listening point (Dc). The recordings are a bit room-heavy for my taste.

I'm considering replacing the KM184s with a pair of Earthworks SR30 and bringing the pair closer to the stage with an ORTF configuration.

What would you think? Different pattern? Placement? Mics?

[d_fu]

I would consider the Earthworks mics too noisy for such an application.

[hughesmr]

Just putting the KM184s in ORTF and moving them forward into a better position is probably your safest and most economical option. But, take with a grain of salt since we don't know the acoustic. The best advice is to try different arrays in different positions and LISTEN until you get something good. But I'd stick with the KM184s ... not my first choice of mic for sure, but they will be OK for the job.

[joenovice]

I'm surprised that the Earthworks wouldn't be a better choice. I plan to add a few mics for stage mic situations; MS, piano, small ensemble, soloist.

I had thought the Earthworks for room and KM184 for close. I see that the KM does have less A-weighted Noise stats. Would this really make a huge difference?

My preamp will be a True Pre8 and thought about adding a 1272 later for color.

What about omni's in an AB stereo? ( I guess it depends on the quality of the room.... which I feel is mediocre)

[Corran]

The Earthworks do have a higher noise floor, so if you are debating on which to put closer, they would probably be better. They are also going to be a lot better sounding than the 184s, in my opinion. However, if you are doing any post processing on the recordings, a little use of noise reduction on the Earthworks can make them sound phenomenal. I have three Earthworks mics and don't really have a problem with the specs.

If your recital hall is anything like my schools though, investigate what each mic sounds like in the room. We have terrible acoustics so the recordings I do in there have to be very close, so the noise floor on the Earthworks are not even close to being "too noisy" even before processing.

[JEGG]

Compared to the 184's, the SR30 will have almost no lower end response, and will have a LOT more noise.

SR30's are not designed for ambient recording. I guess you could use a great deal of EQ, but you'd then still have to deal with the noise.

Not to knock the SR30's. They are good mic's, but not for ambient use.

[joenovice]

What uses would you recommend for SR30's? piano, drum overheads, strings, choir?

[Jim vanBergen]

I love the Earthworks mics and Neumanns... but don't put the cart before the horse. IMHO, it's too early to consider replacing the mics as the first choice if you are getting too much room with cardioid condensers. Are the positioning/focus of the mics optimal? If so, then having too much room in a stereo pair is about placement of mics and artists in the acoustic space. The room may be to blame! You may have mics positioned perfectly to capture primary reflections instead of direct.

Move the KM184s you already have and listen. THEN worry about replacing-

And I have used SR30s in the past as room mics and thought they were wonderful in the right application, specifically for brass and percussion, but not my first choice for quiet pieces.

Hope this helps-

JvB

[joenovice]

Good advice... The stage is being wired with an XLR patch panel to allow for close mic placement. My original thoughts were to bring the 184s down for the up-close stuff and use the SR30s for room.

The placement of the room mics is definitely bad and is going to be changed regardless of which mic we use. I think someone measured the critical distance and placed the mics at that exact spot instead of the 50% point. (cardioids aren't suppost to be placed at 100% of Dc... I don't think)

Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of moving the room mics around at will. They're suspended more than 20 feet up and fixed to the ceiling. We plan to have one day to try some different spots and do some limited testing. After that, they'll be moved, mounted again, and not adjustable.

[jnorman]

imo, those are both really poor choices for ambient mics - both are thin at any distance, and top end in ambient mics is not your friend. consider true pressure omnis - they have no proximity effect, so you will get more low freqs that will give you a richer natural reverb sound.

[Chris Wilson]

I see you haven't read the "Mics You've Dumped And Why" thread further down the page.

[joenovice]

Originally Posted by Chris Wilson

I see you haven't read the "Mics You've Dumped And Why" thread further down the page.

interesting... that thread also has people crapping on some really good mics. (CMC6, Royer)

Where do you draw the line? I've had people recommend I buy matched pair of Schoeps which is WAY OUT of budget. I'm pushing it with 2k per pair.

[Corran]

Originally Posted by Chris Wilson

I see you haven't read the "Mics You've Dumped And Why" thread further down the page.

Who cares! Opinions on mics are a dime a dozen. Earthworks mics have a lousy reputation on this forum but I honestly think it's completely unfounded. They do something special (in my opinion!) to the recording, and the self-noise really isn't a problem.

Don't get all anti-Earthworks just because a couple people said something about them. Have you used them?

[John Willett]

Stick with the Neumanns for the ORTF.

Mt personal choice, though, would be MKH 8040 for cardioid and MKH 8020 for omni.

[Chris Wilson]

Originally Posted by Corran

Who cares! Opinions on mics are a dime a dozen. Earthworks mics have a lousy reputation on this forum but I honestly think it's completely unfounded. They do something special (in my opinion!) to the recording, and the self-noise really isn't a problem.

Don't get all anti-Earthworks just because a couple people said something about them. Have you used them?

My post referring to the barrage of anti-Earthworks comments on the other thread was made more in amazement of the other thread, and not as an anti Earthworks statement itself, so I apologize for my ambiguousness.

If Earthworks microphones impart something onto the sound that works for you, I would like to hear more about what that "something special" is. Probably most of us would be more interested in hearing how to make something work then hearing about what gear is popular or excepted on this forum.

While having no real experience with Earthworks microphones myself, I once worked a show with a sound man who travels with the Earthworks piano microphone setup. For live sound, it yielded the best results, with the least amount of equalization that I have so far experienced (in a live situation). The self noise I cannot speak for, as noise of that subtlety is a non issue in live sound, and I have not heard them in a studio situation.

[Chris Wilson]

Originally Posted by joenovice

interesting... that thread also has people crapping on some really good mics. (CMC6, Royer)

Where do you draw the line? I've had people recommend I buy matched pair of Schoeps which is WAY OUT of budget. I'm pushing it with 2k per pair.

If you are recording a live show in the recital hall of a college, your recording will be defined by mic placement, not by the noise floor of the recording equipment. So, why not use the Earthworks for spots? You can always choose not to include them after the fact if you don't want to, and stick with the stereo pair of 184's.

Perhaps you could even post the results, with all the Earthworks comments going around, I would be interested to hear how it sounds.

[Corran]

Well, the "special" thing I hear is hard to describe. It's like the top end is completely life-like and real sounding, with not a touch of hype or harshness. I find myself saying that the high end might be a little too much, but when I really listen it sits perfectly, as if I was really there listening to it again. And then the low-end is so extended it picks up a good bass-drum "thud" from 30 feet away!

As a side note, I just recieved in the mail a phantom power supply. When I tried my Earthworks SR-77's (same as SR-30's) through them rather than off my board, there was a very noticeable difference in the self-noise! Earthworks' manuals are very specific on this, and I thought my stuff was good enough to be sending all 48 volts of PP, but clearly not. I am of the opinion that the self-noise is probably closer to 30-35db when under-powered. This is a huge difference and I can't wait to use these in a real orchestra session I have coming up; this was just a location voice recording for a movie shoot.

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by Corran

d I thought my stuff was good enough to be sending all 48 volts of PP, but clearly not. I am of the opinion that the self-noise is probably closer to 30-35db when under-powered.

It's relatively easy to measure. Have you?

[Corran]

Not on my other equipment, but the new supply I checked at exactly 48v. I will check my mixer when I get a chance.