What is the "best" recording of Bach's WTC?

[newyorker42]

To help me continue to learn, I'm looking for what members on this forum think is the most well-recorded (whatever that means to you personally) version of Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier Book I.

I'm not looking for the best performance or player, but rather the best sound, or rather the "benchmark" sound recording you would use to compare as a yardstick to others.

I already own the Till Fellner, Sviatoslav Richter, Bernard Roberts, Glenn Gould and Angela Hewitt recordings.

Best,
John

[David Spearritt]

By the look of your recordings, are you only interested in piano rather than harpsichord examples?

[3rd&4thT]

The best performed version of the WTC is the Sviatoslav Richter live in Innsbruck, 1971. It was on Japanese Victor CDs and may currently be available on a Chinese CD set, but I don't read Mandarin-only websites. Sound is cold and bass-shy.

The best engineered set is the Joao Carlos Martins, recorded by David B. Jones for Connoisseur Society. The Baldwin is mic'd from underneath, and is warm, wide, vibrant and incredibly sensual. Unbelievable rub-it-all-over-your-body sound. Nothing else comes close.

3rd&4thT

[newyorker42]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

By the look of your recordings, are you only interested in piano rather than harpsichord examples?

Apologies, yes, I'm looking for piano in this case.

[Roland]

I would look around for a good modern version, recorded in the last 20 years if it's purely technical quality you are listening for. Someone above recommended a recording made on a Baldwin from below the piano's soundboard. Not withstanding that Baldwins are truly awful sounding instruments (IMHO), the location of the mics under the soundboard will give a very false sound (possibly this was done for visual reasons i.e. a concert or video).

Performance wise, I would suspect that Glenn Gould's recordings are as good as any.

Regards


Roland

[newyorker42]

Originally Posted by Roland

I would look around for a good modern version, recorded in the last 20 years if it's purely technical quality you are listening for.
Roland

I've got three of those: Fellner, Hewitt and Roberts.

I also have the Gould and Richter historic recordings.

None of these blows me away, recording quality-wise. One I think is very good, however.

I am really familiar with the WTC, so I would like to hear an example of one that people think is really excellently engineered.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by newyorker42

I've got three of those: Fellner, Hewitt and Roberts.

I also have the Gould and Richter historic recordings.

None of these blows me away, recording quality-wise. One I think is very good, however.

I am really familiar with the WTC, so I would like to hear an example of one that people think is really excellently engineered.

I actually think that performance does effect quality, so I'm not fully surprised that you are not blown away with a modern version of it. Is this an academic exercise to find a modern, high quality sound version? I can think of hearing many really good piano recordings, does it need to be Bach WTC?

Regards



Roland

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by Roland

I actually think that performance does effect quality

Indeed. I cannot think of a WTC I listen to for the recording quality. Its the Richter all the way for me. The colour, interpretation, mood, technical and musical mastery as well as the variety on display in this recording is what makes it soar above all the others, IMHO. :)

This is near the top of my desert island disc list. And the recording quality is pretty good as well.

[David Spearritt]

Thinking of well recorded Bach on the piano, the recordings than come to mind are (for recorded sound quality predominately):

Murray Perahia on Sony, these are beautiful recorded sound quality. Try the English Suites first, really great, Goldbergs not quite as good, a little too close making it slightly agressive but still very fine. But the best Perahia piano sound is his Handel and Scarlatti disc, this is probably the best recorded piano sound I have ever heard.

The DG stuff is characteristically harded edged sometimes even clangy, but two worth mentioning are Pires Partitia, English Suite, French Suite and the older Pogorelich English Suites 2 and 3. The Pogo is astonishingly superb playing as well, some of the best ever.

As far as Decca goes, haven;t heard much of the newer stuff, is there any? But Schiff's Partitas are well rounded and clear.

Let's face it, all the great pianists, recorded by the big companies in their hayday (meaning when they had budgets) are all well recorded. These days the variation in recording quality is much more patchy.

[newyorker42]

Roland and David,

Yes, admittedly, this is a bit of an academic exercise... so that I can hear a work recorded really well that I know intimately. I guess I could pick another piece, but I have several recordings of this and I recently recorded some of this myself.

I agree that recording quality comes (for me at least) a far, far distant second to performance quality.

I'm still pretty shocked that we all can't seem to name an absolutely beautifully recorded version of this work though. It's not like this is fringe repertoire.

John

[newyorker42]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Thinking of well recorded Bach on the piano, the recordings than come to mind are (for recorded sound quality predominately):

Murray Perahia on Sony, these are beautiful recorded sound quality. Try the English Suites first, really great, Goldbergs not quite as good, a little too close making it slightly agressive but still very fine.

I've got these in my collection, so I will have a re-listen with this in mind.

I'll also pick up the Handle and Scarlatti.

Thanks.

[Omicron_9]

Greetings.

My current fave is the Edward Aldwell set. However, asking "Which is the best WTC?" is akin to asking "What is the best ice cream flavor?"

There's a lot out there; it's all based on what you like. There is no 'best.'

Regards,
-0.9

[khai]

I don't think "best" means much. As a whole my favourite is Gould's but I find many preludes and fugues he played interesting and different but not convincing. My desert island WTC would be a patchwork of various versions by different players.

[newyorker42]

Originally Posted by khai

I don't think "best" means much. As a whole my favourite is Gould's but I find many preludes and fugues he played interesting and different but not convincing. My desert island WTC would be a patchwork of various versions by different players.

Recording quality wise? That is all I am trying to consider. Not the performance. So, you are saying that in the versions you have the recording quality differs from track to track?

And yes, that is why "best" is in quotes and is qualified in my first question. I agree there is no absolute "best." Hard to ask the question to get the answer I'm looking for in another way though.

[3rd&4thT]

Originally Posted by Roland

Someone above recommended a recording made on a Baldwin from below the piano's soundboard. Not withstanding that Baldwins are truly awful sounding instruments (IMHO), the location of the mics under the soundboard will give a very false sound (possibly this was done for visual reasons i.e. a concert or video).

Performance wise, I would suspect that Glenn Gould's recordings are as good as any.

Regards

Roland

Please Roland, listen to a recording before slamming it.

Connoisseur Society piano recordings were considered state-of-the-art when issued, and now that they've been de-noised, still stand up brilliantly. This particular technique was developed because it produced spectacular results that excited piano lovers on both sides of the Atlantic. You may not approve of the technique in theory, but in practice, they brought it off with great success.

Pianists have told me that the idea was utilized at first with Baldwins, because when initially tried with Steinways it emphasized an unpleasant brightness and nasality. Eventually this challenge was solved, and Ivan Moravec recorded for Connoisseur Society on both. (These famous performances from the 1960's are now on Supraphon CDs and still sound wondrous.)

BTW, Baldwin had a large client list of prominent pianists before the brand was destroyed through acquisition, and whatever Baldwins may have sounded like in the hall, they sounded pretty damn good recorded this way.

I understand that opinions are fun, but it helps occasionally to have heard something first. You might even allow yourself to be pleasantly surprised.

As it happens I heard a Chopin recital this afternoon at Steinway Hall, and sitting eight feet from and directly in front of the curve, came to the conclusion that the vast majority of piano recordings I've heard have been false. Some are pleasing, some are not, but in different ways and to different degrees, they are false.

Furthermore, it should be mentioned that Glenn Gould's WTC is generally considered his least successful Bach interpretation. It is not completely without merit, but for many this is the one where he missed. Gould in no way beats out Richter's live or studio performances, or those of any of the other competitors mentioned above. And the sound on the Gould recording is nothing for anyone to emulate, close and clangorous and very false. Sony did far better work for Perahia, but then, he doesn't sing, does he?

Newyorker42, I'll reiterate my opinion that of all the WTC's I've heard, and that's most of them, the most exciting engineering is the analog Martins, and it's well worth seeking out. If you want to hear that recording technique in easily accessible form, the Moravec Chopin Nocturnes are widely available on CD, and quite splendid.

However, you'll have a much better selection of recent digital Bach recordings if you pursue the Goldberg Variations instead of the WTC. I've got around 20 Goldbergs at the moment and still counting, and there are some very well recorded ones out there. Perahia, Schiff (ECM version better played than the Decca), Koroliov, Lifschitz, Hewitt, and many more. A wide range of valid recording approaches and fine performances.

3rd&4thT

[newyorker42]

Originally Posted by 3rd&4thT

As it happens I heard a Chopin recital this afternoon at Steinway Hall, and sitting eight feet from and directly in front of the curve, came to the conclusion that the vast majority of piano recordings I've heard have been false. Some are pleasing, some are not, but in different ways and to different degrees, they are false.

3rd&4thT

Yes, agree. I know this next comment is going to raise some ire, but I am also concluding that the far mic-ed, big hall recordings are some of the ones I like least and feel the falsest to me. Perhaps it is that I am hearing the reverb of the whole hall coupled with the then natural reverb of my own room. This is entirely unnatural. Through headphones these sound great, but in a large listening room, things tend to get mucky quick. With the closer mic'ed recordings, it can almost sound like the pianist is in the room with you.

Originally Posted by 3rd&4thT

However, you'll have a much better selection of recent digital Bach recordings if you pursue the Goldberg Variations instead of the WTC. I've got around 20 Goldbergs at the moment and still counting, and there are some very well recorded ones out there. Perahia, Schiff (ECM version better played than the Decca), Koroliov, Lifschitz, Hewitt, and many more. A wide range of valid recording approaches and fine performances.

3rd&4thT

Yes, I'm seeing from this thread I'm going to have to expand the initial thought of collecting great sound recordings for reference to more than just this one piece of music. Staying in this genre will help with the apples to apples comparisons of recording quality though. Thanks for the recs. I already have the Parahia (and Gould), but will look into the others.

[3rd&4thT]

Originally Posted by newyorker42

Yes. agree. I know this next comment is going to raise some ire, but I am also concluding that the far-mic-ed, big hall recordings are some of the ones I like least and feel the falsest to me. Perhaps it is that I am hearing the reverb of the whole hall coupled with the then natural reverb of my own room. This is entirely unnatural. Through headphones these sound great, but in a large listening room, things tend to get mucky quick. With the closer mic'ed recordings, it can almost sound like the pianist is in the room with you.

The recordist can wind up with a dual obligation, finding a place along the continuum of sound from the pianist's perspective to the audience's perspective. Many pianists want to have their keyboard experience replicated, others understand that the audience hears differently, and many successful piano recordings combine mics capturing both perspectives.

And you are absolutely right that your listening setup will help determine which recordings "work" and which don't. It sounds like your room is pretty busy. It's a plus that you can cross-check with headphones. Even better is to get out and hear some live piano performances in good spaces and use that as your touchstone rather than just comparing recordings with each other.

I am personally inclined to a more distant pickup and generally prefer a large hall over a small studio, but there are closely mic'd recordings that I enjoy, and also some that I find just too damned claustrophobic. This is entirely a matter of taste, what pleases the individual.

And for piano, production execution is probably more important than overall philosophy. Good recordings have been made with mics away from, inside of and underneath the piano. It's a matter of individual achievement under specific circumstances, rather than one-size-fits-all, broad-brush prescription.

Originally Posted by newyorker42

Yes, I'm seeing from this thread I'm going to have to expand the initial thought of collecting gathering great sound recordings to more than just this one piece of music. Staying in this genre will help with the apples to apples comparisons of recording quality though. Thanks for the recs. I already have the Parahia (and Gould), but will look into the others.

Good luck in your odyssey. If you're lucky, it will last a lifetime.

3rd&4thT

[newyorker42]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

But the best Perahia piano sound is his Handel and Scarlatti disc, this is probably the best recorded piano sound I have ever heard.

David,

I bought and have been listening to this disc. It is definitely the type of "benchmark" sound I was personally looking for as a reference.

It would be interesting to know how the piano was mic'ed. It doesn't sound too distant but also not too close. From my reading here, I know that many really prefer that sitting-in-the-middle-of-a-large-hall sound, but that often gets too murky for my tastes and I lose the ability to discern complex inner lines in the music, etc. This recording has none of those problems, but still has a nice ambience about it.

(And, of course, given the artist, the playing is jaw-dropping.)

Thanks.

John

[David Spearritt]

John

Glad to hear you have caught up with this CD, it is the best sound I have heard. I am not sure of the recording method, but your impressions are the same as mine. I am fascinated by the intimate (implying close) sound but not too close and also combined with plenty of ambience, essential to good quality piano rendering, especially for dynamics of greater than mf.

I have most of the other CD's discussed in this thread, Hewitt, Moravec and others, they simply don't come close to this one. I also have many of the RR recordings of Dick Hyman and Earl Wild on Baldwins and they are not up there either. Most of these recordings are way too close to the instrument, which is the most common of all recording errors for the classical piano.

Believe me, I have made this error often.