Vocal mics for recording folk duo

[Rick Sutton]

I've got a remote coming up for folk duo in a small room that seats about 50 people. This job is just a little different for me in that I'm also supplying the sound reinforcement. I'm still trying to decide what kind of vocal mics to go with. I own a wide variety of high end recording mics but no mics deigned for live reinforcement use. The duo is male vocal/guitar and female vocal/fiddle. No stage monitors will be used. Is there a live mic out there that is good enough for the album recording? I'll probably be using KM84's for instruments and audience.
thanks for any ideas. Rick

[Dave Martin]

I have had good luck using the large diaphragm hand-held Audio Technica mics for this application - specifically, on difle and vocals. I think the number is AT5400.

[Remoteness]

Since this small room only seats 50 people or so you'll do just fine with your high end recording mics... You won't need a lot of SPL for that crowd so, an adequate sized sound system will work well for you. Use plenty of watts; tune the room with a 1/3 octave; don't push the system and you'll be golden.

A perfect match for the KM84s is a Neumann KMS105. I've like the sound of them. The KMS105 has built in pop filters but, depending on the singer I may add an additional foam pop screen to handle the 'plosions.

[Pohaku]

I've done some coffee house recording that sounds similar to your gig. The previously mentioned AE 5400 is very good (essentially the newer handheld version of the AT 4050). The older model was the AT 4055 and AT4054 depending on whether bass roll off was built in (the AT 4054 had roll off and the AT 4055 did not). The AE 5400 has a roll off switch I believe. I've used the AT 4054s and liked them. I also use Audix VX-10s and like them as well. Either is certainly more than adequate for recording vocals in a live gig. The AE 5400 will be easier to find and less expensive than the Audix if you are looking to buy the mics. Either would be less expensive than the previously mentioned Neumann and would IMHO sound comparable (flame away).

[Remoteness]

I figured since he was using the KM84s why not go for the KMS105 and keep it in the family but...

Hey, I'll try any mic I haven't heard before. I never A/B'd those mics. If you say, either mic would sound comparable at a better price I say, let's try it! I hope I get a chance to check them out someday...

Options (usually) make our world a much better place. IMO, it's all good my man... As long as it works for you -- That's what really counts! Especially when the compromise is minimal.

When I record live concerts, I always go with what the band's engineer has on their rider. It keeps things simple for them and they usually have the right stuff (for their band) out there anyway. But, if it's "broken," I'll always ask to change it out or augment their mic package by patching our own stuff directly to the truck.

[Pohaku]

The Neumann is a great mic, no question about that -- and it does have that "panache" that performers (clients) find attractive.

On the other hand, the other mics perform well and generally are marked down more than the Neumann when purchased new and are certainly less expensive used. Look on e-bay after the Grammy's. AT has historically equipped that show and the mics used for the show seem to be put up on e-bay quite reasonably. I recollect that you could get AE5400's for between $250 and $200, with some going for even less. AT 4054s generally go for between $120 and $150 on e-bay when they come up. Audix VX-10s generally go for between $300 and $350 when they come up (which isn't often). Neumanns typically go for closer to $400 on e-bay.

People will reasonably disagree as to which mic they think sounds "best," but I think that any of the aforementioned mics would be more than suitable for recording a live show in the setting described.

[Rick Sutton]

The Neumann and the AT sound like the leading candidates. Thanks for the tips. I'm watching Ebay in hopes of finding the right situation for a pair....now just gotta decide which way to go. Price or panache. Tough choice. I'll let you know which ones I get and how the remote goes. cheers. Rick

[Pohaku]

The AT mics listed on e-bay currently are a bit pricey - especially considering that I can buy a new one at my local shop for $300. If you wait a bit, other should be available.

Keep an eye out for the AT4054 and AT4055. Same capsule as the AE5400, but they've become bargains since they were replaced by the 5400. I've picked a couple up for @$120 each or so. Great mics (and I don't need any more at the moment so I won't be bidding).

[Remoteness]

Remember, it's not just about the microphone...

The vocalist also has a lot to do with it! Finding the right combination (between the two) is key.

I've heard singers sound perfect on SM58s; M88s and such.

[fifthcircle]

Does it have to be a hand-held mic? Obviously for reinforcement, directionality is important, but I can't imagine you'll need to run it that hot for 50 people... What about placing a quality studio mic on a stand- for folk music, I've been digging the sound of ribbons lately- be it a Royer or a Beyer. If it does have to be handheld and very directional, check out the Beyer M500. The great thing about figure 8 is that while you have a back lobe to worry about, the nulls on the sides are great for isolating sound. With a well-eq'd system, it shouldn't be an issue to use it with a PA.

--Ben

[Pohaku]

The Beyer M500 is a nice mic and is hardy enough for live applications. I think that it's a cardiod pattern mic though. The only figure 8 ribbon that Beyer currently makes is the M130. It is a discontinued model, although they show up on e-bay regularly for @$250 or so.

You really might want to try one out first, if you can, to get an idea if it floats your boat before buying one.

[Pohaku]

Let me clarify --- the M500 is a discontinued model. The M130 is not.

[dynamo]

Pohaku
The M500 is actually hyper cardioid. It has a BIG (around 6db, i think, i don't have time to check its sheet but you may check on the Beyer web site, they still have info about it) presence peak that makes it almost harsh, to me at least. I found it works better with male vocalists (not all, of course) then female. If the artist has some sibilance problem you are in for a treat....Now, that's really nothing that can't be cured with some subtractive eq so....no panic. Not your average smooth ribbon though. Another "issue" that i had with it and also with the M88 (still hyper) is that requires a certain degree of acquaintance from the singer. The pattern is pretty tight. Many singers would "feel" , hear and prefer more a Beta 58 or regular 58 than both these mikes. Even if they may sound worst, believe or not. The comfort factor is very important. If the singers are used to a certain mike, even if not the ideal one, recording time is not usually a good moment for having them to adapt to something else. Of course you may try...i always do. Cheers

[Pohaku]

You are correct on the M500 presence peak (and hypercardioid pattern), which is why I suggested that the OP really might want to try one first before buying one. People either seem to really like or dislike the M500. I personally wouldn't characterize the sound as harsh, but certainly with some voices, other choices are better - I prefer my Beyer M160, GT M3, SM7 (or the aforementioned Audix, Neumann or AT mics) for some voices rather than the M500 - but I wouldn't necessarily want to use the M160 or GT M3 in a live performing environment. Like all mics - some work better for some people than others. Ideally, you should try them out first if you can. I've been meaning to have Steven Sank mod one of my M500s to take out some of that presence peak.

[Dave Martin]

If it helps, I remembered that the mics I used for a live record were the AT 5404's. Worked great for fiddles and vocals.

For an idea of how they sound, you can go to the 'sounds' page of my website and listen to 'The Time Jumpers Theme' those AT's were used for the twin fiddles and all vocals. The lead vocalist is also one of the 2 fiddle players and was playing and singing through the same mic.