Recording a Jazz Big Band

[jazzbutcher]

Howdy Howdy folks,

I've got a date with a 20-piece jazz big-band in a month or two and I'm trying to figger out how I'm gonna handle recording these guys. Seeing as how almost all my experience has been recording acoustic music in clubs and some studio work, I'm in need of a healthy dose of advice, so let it fly!

Here's the basic setup:

5 saxes
4 trombones
4 trumpets
upright bass
drums
grand piano
vocalist
plus a few guest players

Of course the vocalist will have a mic that is connected to the house sound system (the show is going to be in a liberal-arts college auditorium with pretty good acoustics). I'm guessing the piano and bass will need some help as well (at the very least I will mic them for the recording). I have been told that they may set up a couple of mics near the front of the stage for soloists to come out and play (instead of just standing up in-place). I can take splits from any of these mics to my multi-track recorder along with whatever mics I place elsewhere. I'll mix it all down later (thankfully).

So I'm trying to figure out how to approach this. I thought about trying a Decca tree (as I know where I can borrow some Schoeps omnis) with some reinforcement at the sides of the stage and then maybe a stereo pair a little farther back from the stage. I've also got some Coles and RCA ribbons that I'd like to put to work, what with all these horns on stage. I'm not wed to any of these ideas - this is my first stab at it. There may also be some limits set by the band's director on how much I can "junk-up" the front of his stage with large stands... ;->

I've read a ton of old threads in this forum, looking for how different folks handle a session like this -- most were about classical groups and choirs, not too many specific to Big Bands. So I'd love to hear the pro's and cons of different approaches that you've tried in similar settings.


many thanks,

-dave

[fifthcircle]

Personally, I'd ditch the decca tree idea... Never been a fan of them on jazz groups... Plus, it can get pretty unsightly.

I generally mic each sax player, 2 mics per brass section (1 mic per 2 players), 2 mics on the piano, 2-3 mics on the drums (stereo pair plus kick perhaps), 1 mic plus a tube DI on the bass and your assortment of solo mics. I would also consider some sort of area micing on the horn sections. Sometimes I use a stereo mic (lately, a Royer stereo, but I've also used my AKG 426), sometimes, I'll space 3 mics (usually cardiods) across the front of the horn section about 8-9 feet up and aiming down into the section (Standard Tripod Stands up all the way). 2 mics rear facing for audience reaction. All mics except area mics and audience split between recording and FOH.

Be aware of how competent your FOH mixer is. Your mic choices need to work for that person as well as for you. Coles and other fig-8 ribbons can sound devine but the lack of directionality will kill you if you have an inexperienced FOH person. Also cable length can become an issue with passive ribbons. If you aren't placing your pres on stage, you may have signal strength issues in a lot of PA situations (long cable runs).

If you have a good stereo mic or mic array positioned in front of the horns, you may find that you don't need as many mics inside the group. I just find that when I try to area mic bass, drums and piano, things sound washy. I can get a much better image when there are enough mics on stage... Even with the array in front, you'll find that you use the mics inside the horn section when you need to dig out your solos.

--Ben

[jazzbutcher]

Ben -- Thanks for your suggestions. I guess I should have better explained the sound reinforcement situation. I was told that the band would be playing with only minimal mics - that is, one for the vocalist, one for the bass, piano, and then the two solo mics in front of the band.

I would like to try to record the band without individually micing each member of the group. I don't really have enough mics, stands or inputs handy to mic each player effectively. Also, I think I will not be allowed to put that many stands on stage!

So, with those limitations more clearly defined, any ideas?

I was definately planning on micing the piano, drums, and DI the bass.

Also, does anyone have any details on how big bands used to be recorded back in the 40's and 50's??? I'm just curious how it used to be done. Most of the photos I've seen seem to only show a few RCA 77's stuck in front of the band and one or two near the piano/bass/guitar. I assume there was more to it than that...


-dave

[fifthcircle]

Gotcha...

In that case, I would use a Left-Center-Right set (or single stereo mic) in front of the horn section. With those mics, you'll get a pretty good horn sound. Then mic the rhythm section individually- I'd still do 2 on the piano, but 1 on the drums in front of the kit (as a spot- bleed will give you plenty of space in the drum sound), and one mic on the bass. A DI may help as well if the player is sitting right next to the drums and doesn't use his body as a gobo (some players are great at this- John Clayton and Christian McBride are two that come to mind). The mic will certainly sound better, but often a bass mic next to the drums can be trouble. You also may want to play mic games for the bass- dynamics will pick up less drums (MD421, M88, or RE20 can work well) or you could use a ribbon and put the drums in the null of the figure 8.

Then put your solo mics out front for voice, horns or whatever...

That would give you roughly 10-12 inputs for the whole show including audience mics. Does that fit in your capabilities?

--Ben

[jazzbutcher]

Ben,

Can you (and perhaps others as well) explain why you wouldn't use a Decca Tree with a Big Band like this? What are the disadvantages/advantages of the Decca Tree in this setting?


Also, a friend of mine described a technique that is apparently popular at KUVO radio to record Big Bands. I have no idea of the merits of this technique, but I'd be curious to hear if it makes sense to those of you who've done more of this kind of work than I have.... But he says it sounds great. He tells me it goes like this:

Place three omni mics across the front of the stage, far left, center, far right - each about 10' in front of the band - each about 12' above stage. Then in front of the stage, place an XY pair facing the audience.

Does this make sense? Or a recipie for disaster? It seems to me that it would be picking up way too much hall/audience sound... but then again I've not ever tried it... thoughts?


-dave

[fifthcircle]

For me it is the issue of bleed in the ensemble and how to blend ensemble versus instrument sound.

I'm not overly fond of big band (or most jazz) drums that are mic'd from a distance. The Drumset in a big band is rarely quiet and there is enough of a set of issues to get a good sound on your horn section. The horn section can easily be considered one ensemble and the rhythm section another ensemble. For the rhythm section to have the impact and drive, the detail of closer mics works very well. Each instrument has its own function and independent lines.

However, the various horns are not usually performing individual parts- rather ensemble writing is the norm here. You'll have lines that are written in harmony across all the similar instruments. (ie the sax section, trumpet section or trombone section). The only solos are the individual solos that you said you'll have out front. Only with the more moden charts do you see a lot of contrapuntal writing inside the horn section.

I've done setups like I've described with very good results a number of times. I just see overall micing of a big band to not work in the long run... As I said, it is personal preference rather than some sort of set rule.

Whenever I've put an array of microphones in front of the band, I've ended up not using them. For the audience, I also will usually place the two mics on tall stands at the corners of the stage. I've done the stereo pair thing, too, but I don't really need to derive an image of the room/applause sound and putting a pair in the center of the group facing out places a mic stand that otherwise wouldn't be there where everybody can see it. Just show aesthetics, really. If I absolutely needed an image of the hall, I'd use a stereo pair, but a very widely spaced pair works just fine.

--Ben

[jazzbutcher]

Ben,

Thanks for that explanation of drum sounds and the various 'ensembles' that make up a big band. I guess when you describe it like that, it starts to make a lot more sense to me. I guess I've been thinking of a Big Band performance as one big ensemble heard from afar...and maybe it sounds good a ways back, but up closer, the volume levels of the different sections are competing with each other as you describe.

Ok, I think I'm getting a better picture of what I'm going to be dealing with next month. I'll start thinking of how to do the most justice to each section of the band as you describe.


thanks,

-dave