Stereo Pair in a Decca Tree

[wildplum]

I’ve been reading about Ron Streicher’s use of a stereo pair as the front-center “mic” in a decca tree configuration (rather than then usual omni). The idea was to increase the articulation of the tree.

I would like to hear about other people’s experiences with using a stereo pair as the front-center “mic”. In Streicher’s case, he used an M/S pair (or, later, a SoundField mic), but I would like to hear about any coincident or near coincident configurations used as the front-center of a decca tree.

[tenor39]

I've used X/Y cardioids in the center of a 'tree with good effect. M/S seems like a waste, since the outside omni's will dominate the stereo width.

[7rojo7]

I use an x/y over an omni or an optimized cardioid triangle with 3 Schoeps cmc5 or 3 Brauner PhantomVs as a main array and 3 cmc21 half omnis as flanking.

[wildplum]

How would you describe the advantages and disadvantages of using an x/y pair for the center mic in place of the traditional single omni?

[mpdonahue]

Originally Posted by wildplum

How would you describe the advantages and disadvantages of using an x/y pair for the center mic in place of the traditional single omni?

I've been using a pair of omnis in the front of a tree for about 20 years.
What it does for the image is get rid of the "mono" component of the Decca tree (Which has always steered me away from using it) and replaces it with a stereo pickup.
It also saves a lot of riding of the center mic of the tree to combat the dreaded "image collapse" that happens when the sound pressure increases.
All the best,
-mark

[mljung]

Originally Posted by mpdonahue

I've been using a pair of omnis in the front of a tree for about 20 years.
What it does for the image is get rid of the "mono" component of the Decca tree (Which has always steered me away from using it) and replaces it with a stereo pickup.
It also saves a lot of riding of the center mic of the tree to combat the dreaded "image collapse" that happens when the sound pressure increases.
All the best,
-mark

Interesting - I've been experimenting with a stereo-front on a tree too, but never omnis.
Mark, hope it's ok with a few questions: Do you use an A-B pair [20-30cm apart or more] Do you angle them? Does it have enough reach into the back of the orchestra to use without spots? Do you use if often or is it only in certain situations.

[mpdonahue]

Originally Posted by mljung

Interesting - I've been experimenting with a stereo-front on a tree too, but never omnis.
Mark, hope it's ok with a few questions: Do you use an A-B pair [20-30cm apart or more] Do you angle them? Does it have enough reach into the back of the orchestra to use without spots? Do you use if often or is it only in certain situations.

I should preface that I've usually done this with either TLM-50S or KM130's with balls.
Normally I'd use a pair at about 30cm splayed out to give the appropriate image width. With the 50's or 130's the directionality at HF is more akin to a hyper-cardioid, so the reach is better in the mains and I usually have to use less WW spots and such.
But the biggest change is the openness of the image without the mono "pressure" in the middle of the image. I find it much more enjoyable to listen to "pure" stereo rather than the mono center. As a bonus, (Personal opinion here) I find it much easier to blend the spot mics into the pure stereo mains.
All the best,
-mark

[Don S]

I'm pretty sure Ron used that particular tree for surround. Using the Schoeps XY for a more stable center image. I saw a picture of it in Mix mag a couple years ago. He had MK41's pointing towards the rear corners to capture the room. I would have liked to hear the results!

[mljung]

Originally Posted by mpdonahue

I should preface that I've usually done this with either TLM-50S or KM130's with balls.
Normally I'd use a pair at about 30cm splayed out to give the appropriate image width.

Thanks for your info Mark.
I have DPA4006TL [with balls] which I usually use as the "outer" pair. But maybe I should make some experiments.

Thanks again,
Mads

[t_chance]

How about a Jeklin disc with a your omni's for your pair? No experience, just thinking out loud.

[mljung]

Originally Posted by t_chance

How about a Jeklin disc with a your omni's for your pair? No experience, just thinking out loud.

Earlier on I did actually use a baffle between my cardioid stereo pair. It gave a lot of seperation although the opening angle of the pair was pretty small, in order to have best possible reach.

Another possibility is to use a pair of Fig-8 as center-pair. In parallel as in Faulkner phased array. Did that experiment once, and as far as I recall it came out very good. But because of very high humidity one of the Fig-8's began to 'boil' during the recording. So I had to make a mix without it.

[wildplum]

Originally Posted by Don S

I'm pretty sure Ron used that particular tree for surround. Using the Schoeps XY for a more stable center image. I saw a picture of it in Mix mag a couple years ago. He had MK41's pointing towards the rear corners to capture the room. I would have liked to hear the results!

From what I understand, he did both conventional stereo and surround recordings. His earlier experiments were stereo only, using a AKG C426 in M/S as the center mic and 414s for the flankers. He later experimented with a surround set up using a Sounfiled MK-V as the center mic, MK21s as the flankers and mk41s as the rear mics (positioned outside the flankers, facing more or less rearward).