Monitoring in tough environments

[rockstar_josh]

Hi... I've dug through the Remote forum for a while, and I'm hoping to get some solid feedback on a problem I have (hopefully I can explain it clearly):

I own a rehearsal studio where two of my rooms are used for tracking. I have pass throughs from the rooms out to the hallway/foyer area, and I set up my rack and monitors in the hallway in front of the two rooms. Actually, to be more specific, one room is 4 feet longer than the other, so it creates a little nook where I set up. The rooms' mic outputs are located in this nook. I have a large problem getting good kick drum sounds, and accurate bass guitar sounds, because about 4 feet behind me is a 70 ft. long common wall that makes up the "hallway" outside of our rooms. The ceilings are 25 ft., so the low end especially just goes everywhere! I don't have a lot of pace or a convenient place to bass trap, so I can't control my low end at all. It's a really horrible control room environment, but it's the best I can do until I can get more space for an actual control room.

I've considered two options: either using the JBL 4328s with room correction, or getting a really good set of headphones and using them for dialing in my kick and bass sounds. I have some Sennheiser 280s, but those aren't good enough to give me a clear, definite kick sound.

My questions are: has anyone had any luck with certain types of monitors (the JBLs even?) in difficult monitoring setups?

Can anyone recommend suitable phones for the job? I've read a lot about Grados and Ultrasones and higher-end Sennheisers.

Thank you all very much for at least taking the time to read this far!

[Remoteness]

Have you considered working on the acoustics of the space you're listening in?
Surrounding yourself with a few portable traps or gobos would help a lot.
You can take them down when you're not tracking.

[rockstar_josh]

Thanks for the reply! I've considered this. I have a couple of GIK moveable bass traps, and I can build a couple more. It's tough simply because there's not a lot of room in the spot I'm in. I seriously have about 4 or 5 feet from my back to the wall behind me. It's also the most convenient place to be, because I can look into the rooms and see the musicians, and the bassist/vocalist can set up near me and see their counterparts. One thought is to move back into the foyer area (which is about 20 x 25 ft) and set up gobos and panels, but that would put me away from the musicians and require additional snakes and whatnot. I suppose I could get a good 24 channel snake to run over there, and set up the "control room" in the foyer/common area.

[Remoteness]

...Add a closed circuit camera for extra measure.
As you already know, being able to see the artists can be very helpful.
If applicable, you could also set-up a camera at your position so the band can see you.

[Jay Kahrs]

I've always dug your Tube Trap monitor stands Steve-O. Got a picture of 'em handy?

Anyway the only way around it is to improve the environment you're in. More trapping, diffusion... sounds like your in the same room as the band? Isolated? Little confused there... but you can only get so far in an open room situation. Record a little, play back, move mics. Record more... listen back... move mics again... record a little more...

If the room sucks then no monitors will save you... they're all going to be equally bad. Headphones can work... sort of. I like the Sennheiser HD125 & have no real problems with the AT D40's... been using them long enough that I know what I'm getting most of the time. I've often wondered how well those Bose noise canceling phones would fare in a loud tracking situation...

Though when you're 10 feet from the kick drum & an Ampeg there's no way to know anything until you hear the playback...

[Graham Tobias]

at the moment I'm mixing in a super narrow hall way with no space at all, horrible acoustics, airplanes flying over my head constantly (minutes from jfk), loud practice rooms downstairs, and a constant flow of teenagers through the nearby elevators. I'm using JBL LSR's and Stax electrostatic headphones. As much as it sucks to mix here... you can get used to anything.

[rockstar_josh]

Graham, I'm in a similar situation. Thankfully i don't have planes flying overhead or kids running around, but I'm in a hallway with bad acoustics and a non-ideal mixing shape. I actually mix in a room that IS set up properly, on a pair of Dynaudio's. The tracking/monitoring part is what I have trouble with. I do need to upgrade my monitors for the tracking set up, so I'll probably go with the LSRs and keep using headphones. It will be a while until I can build a better environment, so I have to make do.

Jay - I've wondered about the Bose headphones also. I think that in front of a kick drum or cabinet it'll still bleed, though. They're great headphones but not impenetrable!

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by rockstar_josh

Jay - I've wondered about the Bose headphones also. I think that in front of a kick drum or cabinet it'll still bleed, though. They're great headphones but not impenetrable!

I'd fully expect that!!! Though I wonder if they can effectively turn off, or at least turn down guitar cabs & the like enough to give an idea of what's going to tape, more-so then "shooter muffs" anyway. Also wondering if there's any tonal shift from the noise canceling technology since it's DSP based...

Regardless, if I can't get full isolation from the band then I'd rather be in the same room and have the communication be in top form, and deal with whatever sonic issues by recording & listening back in chunks.

Seems to work...

[Dissdnt_penguin]

I've been also looking for a good set of headphones with great attenuation, and Bose's don't seem to be the option. According to some study I found (Attenuation Values of a Noise-Canceling Headphone | June 2008 | The Hearing Industry Resource) Bose canceling headphones offer around 13.3 dB of attenuation. The attenuation level is not provided by Bose on their headphone specs or by any other retailer I could find, which I found rather suspicious.

There are other manufacturers claiming to have achieved around 29 (Passive) to 30 (Active) dB of reduction. Personally I prefer passive because it will also prevent bleed from headphones to mics whereas active is designed as a one-way attenuation system.

The alternatives I've found are

1. Direct Sound EX-29 Extreme Isolation Headphones claim to offer 29 dB of passive isolation in the 80-90 USD range, although some reviews I've read describe them as fairly sounding but cheaply crafted. I contacted the manufacturer and designer a few years ago to ask if I could have a custom made set with detachable cord, and he said he could biuld it, but he could offer to warranty over that set because proper testing would be very time consuming, so I didn't get them in the end.

2. JD Power Sound Super Noise reduction canceling Headphones claim to offer 30 dB of active attenuation in the 200-250 USD price range, but haven't found any reviews on a site I trust. If they actually sound good and can offer the 30 dB of reduction, they might be worth to hear. I've been considering to check up on these.

DP