Best Matched pair for choir, concert band

[Sean Holland]

I am on the brink of investing in a matched pair of condensor mics mainly for the following purposes:
1. Recording choirs, sometimes in decent halls, sometimes in school gyms.
2. Concert bands (school gyms, decent halls)
3. Acoustic acts in small clubs and coffee shops.
I'll likely be using ORTF technique in most of the above cases, but I'm not dogmatic.
I might also want to use them in my garage from time to time: drum kit overheads, me on my acoustic, etc. etc., if such universally versatile units exist.
First priority is that they work well for the numbered purposes, as I would expect to make money doing that.
The mics would be teaming up with my MOTU 896HD, (I also have a Focusrite Octopre and an Aphexs 207 pre in my rig), and a Powerbook G4 running DP 4.5.
Budget is no more than $2500 (Canadian).
I'd appreciate any advice at all. Thanks.

[mpr3]

If you can use omnis, then the Earthworks QTC1's or QTC30s will give you an incredibly realistic sound. The Motu preamps may stifle them a bit.

If you need cardoid, but want the openness of an omni, I really like the Schoeps MK21s. They are a wide cardoid that sound wonderful (a slight warming boost in the upper mids), providing just enough rear rejection to drop the room sound significantly. The detail of the Schoeps is outstanding, though the transient response is not as pure as the Earthworks, especially when used with a fast slew pre like the Buzz MA2.2 or the GML.

For a standard cardoid with a somewhat natural frequency response, I like the Josephson C42s. The high end stays stable (not brittle) and the lows are firmly present. They are very versatile mics. More so than the Schoeps and Earthworks IMO.

[Sean Holland]

Thanks for this response. I've read of the C42s being compared to the KM184, but then some in this forum speak of the KM184 as having a harsh or brittle high end. Do you think the C42s are superior to the KM184s in this regard, despite their significantly lower price tag?

Another question that will perhaps further reveal my newbieness: I've dealt with floor rumble when micing performances in gyms (just sound reenforcement, not recording), and had to tweak the eq to get rid of it. In my recording setup I don't have outboard eq, except for hi-pass filter switch on the Octopre. Would a pad switch or the like be an important or useful feature in the ideal mic for my intended purposes?

[JonCraig]

Originally posted by Sean Holland
Would a pad switch or the like be an important or useful feature in the ideal mic for my intended purposes?

a pad will only drop the overall level by the pad amount; so, no, it will not be useful for this purpose. a rolloff, however, would be exactly what you're looking for. a pad and rolloff are often side by side on the microphone. be sure to know what's being rolled off. some start the rolloff too high, in my opinion.

also... if you're recording into DP, you could EQ later, or it may even be possible to edit out certain noises, etc.

what could be more useful, though, would be a shock mount for the microphones. they use a system (usually oposing rubber-bandish things; each manufacturer will do it slightly different) that mechanically isolates the mic from the stand. seriously eliminating any floor noise. you'll find these to also be really helpful if you're using the mics as drum overheads.

don't get too cheap w/ shockmounts. there are some that are affordable, but cheaply made. remember--it's these couple of rubber bands that are the only thing holding your microphone (save the cable). cheaper to buy a good shockmount than to replace a capsule.

hope this helps!

--jon

[hollywood_steve]

I've read of the C42s being compared to the KM184, but then some in this forum speak of the KM184 as having a harsh or brittle high end. Do you think the C42s are superior to the KM184s in this regard, despite their significantly lower price tag?

I don't have any hands on experience with the C42s, but I do want to comment on the KM184s. I'm the first to agree that these mics might be a little brighter than I would prefer, but I'd rate them as a LONG way from harsh or brittle. For a little over $1k/pair (back when the dollar was worth something), these were a great deal. Most of the negative comments I have heard from actual users have been in comparison to other high end (often pricier!) mics. Compared to the flood of cheap condensers introduced recently (NOT the Josephsons), you might be surprised at just how good the KM184s can sound.

[sonare]

Having read this thread, and having owned or used all the mics discussed, i think your best choice is the Schoeps CMC6/MK21.

They combine the best of omnis (better lowend, smoother upper-mids, less shock-prone than cardioids) with what you want in a cardioid (more direectional, with clearer imaging in stereo pairs).

They will work in ORTF but also try NOS (90 degrees with 12 inches between capsules). In a really reverberant setting you can also space them (18-36 inches, but avoid the "hole in the middle"). And don't waste your money on the "X" version of the CMC6. Jerry Bruck suggests a wider angle with MK21-- 120 degrees. Close headphone listening will help you refine your angle in various situations.

For shockmounts get the Shure A53 (at half the cost of the Schoeps mount and much more durable). In my experience these are better at attenuating the garbage you will battle on wooden floors and other location gremlins.

These are mics you will never want to sell. Just try to find MK21s on eBay and you will see what I mean. Unlike the Earthworks or KM184 you can add capsules to your arsenal as your needs evolve.

Rich

[7rojo7]

I have the compact version of the schoeps MK21, I also have the MK5 which can switch between omni and cardiod with a twist of the capsule cover. The capsule is the same as the omni capsule for distant recording (almost all of your examples) which emphasizes the hi end for more detail at a distance. It sounds great as a cardioid also, I've not been disappointed using them on overheads or acoustic gtr or clarinet or sax or percussion or piano.
The compact models are a little more quiet while the models with the CMC body have a little more headroom, I chose more quiet.
The MK21s can be used as ORTF infact you have a great mono image, 120 is good too, an MK5 in omni and 2 MK21 180 is massive.
I use an MK5 in omni (C and LFE) and 2 in cardiod (L and R) XY and 2 MK21s (Ls and Rs) ORTF in my small condensor surround tree, I record all 5 mics seperately and can mix later. I use a similar setup with 3 Brauner Phantom V and 2 Phantom C for a large condensor sound.
A good start is 2 MK5s, with the body or without, or Brauner Phantom Vs, they're versatile and always useful for other things as well. In Europe the prices are less, the Brauner Phantom Vs are going for 1400 euro a piece now

[PlugHead]

Originally posted by mpr3
If you can use omnis, then the Earthworks QTC1's or QTC30s will give you an incredibly realistic sound. The Motu preamps may stifle them a bit.

IMO,

Earthworks mics are too noisy for critical stereo recording: fine for loud stuff, but for exposed, dynamic performances (i.e. choir), I don't think they cut the mustard, even with the quietest preamps (Buzz/Hardy etc) BTW, I own a pr. of TC30k's, and tho they're very realistic, I'd pick something like DPA/B&K (40XX series), Schoeps, or Neumann if it were my money. I think you could afford a pr. of Schoeps in around that budget, give or take a few hundred Cdn dollars, but I think the DPA's are a bit out of reach financially. Never heard the Josephson C42's, but I wouldn't rule them out either...

Best with it!

maybe cant afford schoeps anymore... their prices here have gone up 21 percent in the last year... stupid euro...

[hollywood_steve]

their prices here have gone up 21 percent in the last year... stupid euro...

"lame USA dollar" would be more accurate

i suppose so...

[greg kares]

I think that it all depends on budget and purpose. I feel that one should have a pair of matched cardioid as well as a pair of omnis. Although I think everyone can agree that Schoeps are amazing, there are some others out there that are outstanding. If you are on a serious budget then the RODE NT5s are your best bet for cardioid and Audio Technica 103a's for omni. If not, then try the Neumann 130s or 180s. As for the 184s sounding too harsh, then try a pair of 414s. I have had a lot of success with small diaphragm for cardioid and then large for figure 8 or omni and you can get a pair of 414 for the price of a schoeps Mk II with all the capsules.

PS
The rumble that you heard is caused by the HVAC system most likely. Try a high pass filter set to 60-40Hz to eliminate it.