ribbon (or other) mics for fiddle?

[saus10]

I've often heard people recommend ribbon mics for orchestral strings. I'm curious if anyone also uses ribbon mics for fiddle styles such as bluegrass, Celtic, swing, etc., or is something else better for these styles?

I'm getting ready to purchase a mic to use for recording my fiddle, it will also get used for various acoustic instruments, guitar, mandolin, etc. I'm considering various ribbon mics in the $1000 range; Cole 4038, AEA R84, Royer R121, also a tube mic, ADK CE has been recommended.

I don't yet have either a ribbon or tube mic, so either would give me additional colors to work with besides the assortment of LDC and SDC condensors that I have. I live in a rural area so can't try anything out before ordering, so all opinions and advice welcome.

thanks,

Seth

[brownmouse]

i used a royer r-121 on a fiffle and it worked great. i have an aea r-84 and i'm sure that will be the first one i try on the next fiddle i get to record. if you don't have a ribbon yet, then i would definitely suggest picking up an aea r-84 or coles 4040 or even a royer r-122/121.
joshua
btw, give mercenary a call, i'm sure they can arrange a scenario where you can try a few and return the ones you don't want to buy (it's only a few bucks extra shipping, but sooooo woth it!)

[David R.]

Ribbon on fiddle = Yea baby!

It really helps smooth the fiddle. I have been using an RCA 77DX, never tried the Royer but have heard good things.

First time I recorded fiddle with the 77DX, I almost fell off the chair. Been listening to old Hank Williams and it was the same exact sound.

Player loved it too.

[jasonlivermore]

I recently did a session where the best mic for the fiddle was a beyer m160dx with the sank mod. These sound a little more scooped, which helped with some of the honkyness.

Json Livermore

www.blastingroomstudios.com

[HudHudson]

I've used a Coles 4038 with a Millennia HV-3 preamp with great success on fiddle as well as cello (I had the pleasure of doing some tracks with John Hagen of Lyle Lovett's band). Super level of realism, in your face, easy to place where you want it in the mix.

[fifthcircle]

The Royers sound great on fiddle... I also use the Beyer 160 quite a bit for fiddle. It is a different sound, but equally valid.

--Ben

[steins]

Royer 121 on fiddle works great for me too. It smooths out the sound, makes it more natural.

Like everything else, it all depends which sound you are looking for. It might not be your thing at all.

Stein Tore

[Beech]

You shouldn't discount the DPA 4011. Very nice all rounder on acoustic instruments. I personally like a clean pre with it, Massenburg or Focusite ISA115.

[borau]

About the 4011 vs. ribbons, i have to say that i don't agree. I have used both several times on fiddle. My favourite is the Coles 4038 and the Beyer M 160.

The B&K/DPA 4011 does not cut it at all IMHO.

-Bora

[PRobb]

For accoustic instruments inaccoustic environments, I find the 121 the best all around mic I have ever used. If you need to cut through electric guitars and rock drums, it might not have the sparkle you need, but in all accoustic music it has a rich, natural sound. I love the 4038 and can't wait to try the R-84, but if I had to have just one, It would be the 121.

[borut]

I also am for ribbons on fiddle!!
beyers work great and are quite inexpensive compared to...royers,....
You can try putting one very close (closer than 1 meter evan half of one meter can also work), but you need to add an extra room (LC) mic at least 2 meters away.
This way you get very in your face sound that is also very intimate and not at all scratchy sounding!

A lot depends on the room also!

[ISedlacek]

I would say that for a nice violin sound, two microphones (stereo) are definitely needed. Violin has very complex sound spectrum and one microphone will almost invariably bring just kind of flat, boring, one-dimensional sound.

[saus10]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I haven't quite decided on which mic to get yet, am quite tempted by the R84 however there are many good reports about the Beyer 160 as well. I'm leaning towards trying the Beyer, since the price difference could buy another mic. :-)

Seth

[jnorman]

i have used pairs of royer r-121s, schoeps cmc64s, DPA 4011s, and DPA 4006s on solo violin, and the most effective tracks i have gotten were with a single AKG c480/ck61. the royers are very nice mics, but in the end, i guess i just prefer the sound of really good condensers - the key seems to be selecting mics that have a generally flat response. i also agree with ivo that in the right acoustic environment, using a stereo pair can be the best choice. however, the last CD i did for RoseWynde, i wound up using a mono setup for all the violin tracks, including the one violin solo piece - a very realistic sound with nothing added except a small amount of large hall reverb.

[Dave Martin]

I record fiddles on a regular basis (maybe 10-20 songs a month), and an M582 is the go-to mic here. And my forvorite acoustic music engineer uses a C12 or C24, so ribbon mics aren'tthe only alternative.

[rockstar]

i´m wondering nobody mentioned the neumann KM series small diaphragm condenser mics. wouldn´t you guys use them on fiddle?

KM53
KM54
KM56
KM63
KM64
KM66
KM253
KM254
SM2

all tubes

KM84
KM184

all FET

[fifthcircle]

I have used a number of Neumann KM series mic on fiddles- The KM64 is a fantastic mic. The Sennheiser MKH40 is also great. However, as smooth as those condensers are, a ribbon will still be smoother.

I recently used Royer 122's on a jazz fiddle section (yup, 10 violins playing jazz) and I had a MKH40 as my solo mic. The difference in sound was NOT subtle. There was just somewhat of an "etched" brightness that the condenser had. Mind you, I've gotten great recordings with the MKH40 and without comparison I likely would have been very happy with it. Problem was going from the Royer to the Sennheiser just wasn't close.

--Ben

[saus10]

Although I would like to get a ribbon mic, I've also had very favorable results with various other mics on violin.

In my own studio I've used Rode NT2 and Oktava MK319 on fiddle, both of these worked well, I also tried an AT4033, but thought it too bright. When producing in other studios I've used Neumann U87 with excellent results, but I don't have the budget for one of those :-( I've also used an AKG3000 and a few others that I can't remember now.

It really all comes down to mic placement, too close to the fiddle gets more bow noise than I want, too far loses some definition.

That said, I'd still like a ribbon mic in my mic locker :-)

Seth

[barforama]

I ususally use a combination of U87 and R121. Both sounds good. The R121 is soft-isha nd the U87 adds a bit of edge which blends great

[toolskid]

ribbons for everything

[studjo]

RIBBONS for JO

[JYoder]

Actually I like the Beyer and the Royer together.... Jonathon Yudkin, a great fiddle player here in town does all his sessions with this setup. He runs them through a pair of 737s and hands the engineer a pair of XLRs. You can hear this setup on Shania Twain and Keith Urban and tons of others.

[PlugHead]

IME,

I almost always prefer the 4038, R-121 (122), SF1, maybe a M160/260/500. I also can appreciate SD condensers (Neumann/DPA), but back a few feet, in a good sounding room: often they're too screechy and articulate for a beautiful violin sound, which often needs space around it to sound "natural" - then again - who the hell is ever looking for "natural" nowadays...

I would also recommend trying the AEA R-84: i don't own one, but have tried it, and it seems a respectable mic for the bread.

best of luck!

[steins]

Originally posted by barforama
I ususally use a combination of U87 and R121. Both sounds good. The R121 is soft-isha nd the U87 adds a bit of edge which blends great

Hey, that's the setup I use most of the time myself. On the last fiddle session, I used a R121 about 30 cm away from the fiddle, a U87 a little further back, and two M149 to capture the room (they are always up in the main room as room mikes). A little IBP adjustments between the R121 and the U87, and then blend to taste. I think it worked out very nice.

I've yet to try the AEA R84 on fiddle, that one might work great too.

Stein Tore

[barforama]

Originally posted by steins
Hey, that's the setup I use most of the time myself. On the last fiddle session, I used a R121 about 30 cm away from the fiddle, a U87 a little further back, and two M149 to capture the room (they are always up in the main room as room mikes). A little IBP adjustments between the R121 and the U87, and then blend to taste. I think it worked out very nice.

I've yet to try the AEA R84 on fiddle, that one might work great too.

Stein Tore

The Viking way

[WildCowboys]

what I find interesting is that the suggestions here range from the darkest (ribbon) to the brightest (c12) and everything inbetween. it really shows that sound is so extremely subjective. I would bever again use bright condensers (I used C451+CK1 and Blue lollipop capsules) on violins for example...sounded "good" and real when checking the sound, but always turn out too thin and brittle in the mix, and eqing di not really satisfy me. anything darker like fet47, U87 or TLM170/193 or ribbons (if not too noisy) would be a better choice for my taste. did anyone hear the sampling cd "peace&love orchestra strings"? they produced that about 2 years ago using 60ies techniques, lots of ribbon mics and tube neumanns, man, it is good to know that even today it is possible to get that old sound, soooo beautifully dirty, you gotta hear this!

Rock on!
Pat

[ISedlacek]

For me a combination of Schoeps pairs (MK2, MK21 or MK4V) with Millennia HV-3 and Lavry Blue bring extremely pleasant and natural sound of violin or viola, even in a small, acoustically treated room. Violin usually sounds the best with MK4V or MK21, viola with MK2 ...
But I record only violin, not a "fiddle"

[Musiclab]

I recently recorded Eamon O'Rourke the fiddle and mandolin player for Kathy Mattea. We used a Peluso 2247 thru I think an API . We got an amazing sound. Eamon liked it so much I think he bought one.

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by JYoder
Actually I like the Beyer and the Royer together.... Jonathon Yudkin, a great fiddle player here in town does all his sessions with this setup. He runs them through a pair of 737s and hands the engineer a pair of XLRs. You can hear this setup on Shania Twain and Keith Urban and tons of others.

I could probably find some raw tracks of it if you'd like to hear it.

WHen did Yud go to that combination? He used to use an ART pre and a 4033 (or something comparable).

[JYoder]

I guess enough of the Shania/Keith U/Faith Hill sessions you can afford to expand a little... He's got a ton of effects in the rack too.

Definitely one of the more impressive musicians I've met in Nashville... His off the top of his head arrangements are phenomenal.