Anyone using FTP and video conferncing to do remote sessions?

[MJGreene Audio]

I am glad to see someone else is thinking of this also. I have been trying to figure out a better way to like a string session in Prague with some of the composers, who's charts are being recorded, here in the states. I also though about Ichat AV and doing streaming audio through Itunes. Then if size permitable having them ftp the files and fed-ex a hard drive. I would love to try something also if you or anyone else is interested and has any other or better ideas.

Lets talk,
Michael Greene
mjgreeneaudio@comcast.net

www.mjgreeneaudio.com

[cajonezzz]

You got the gear michael??

Be glad to try to get something happening if ya like.
craig

[djui5]

What happened to ISDN? Sessions done anywhere in the world in near real time....through a direct ISDN connection between the 2 studios involved (or however many people/studios).

There's the boxes you need....coders and decoders....but I've heard it works well.


It would be nice to have something that's commonly found in studios for this.....instead of having special hardware etc etc...

[picksail]

I'd definately be into it.

[cajonezzz]

Originally posted by picksail
I'd definately be into it.

Let's do it Pick.
i'll get an isight after the first (I'm on the road till then)

I wanna try to figure out how to use two firewire cams and a switcher....!!!!
one for the room and one for the CR.

I'm really close to doing the digi delivery thing. No one has one in town.
I think I may be the guinea pig.

[picksail]

I even spoke with the producer on last weeks' session who was excited about the idea of being able to produce the next batch of songs for this record via iChat/iSight. I introduced the idea because there is a potential conflict in scheduling the next session, as he may not be present, but if I can pull this off then...

Let me resolve our server problem, then I can be of more use.

[MJGreene Audio]

Randy,
The problem with ISDN in my case is they have an ISDN box in Prague. The box and the lines are owned buy a company in LA that does this exact thing for their clients. There is no way they will let us use it unless we hire out the session through them. Thats not going to happen so plan B.

Cajonezz,
Let me see what I can put together and how to make Ichat or Itunes stream audio and then we can give it a try. I love your idea of a camera switcher. It makes great sense if you can do it. I am interested on your take of the digi delivery system. Isn't it a bit pricey to do? It seems like you can do an FTP site for much less but I also liked what I heard about Rockit Network before they folded.

Picksail,
What experiance have you had streaming audio. What is the easiest way to do this?

Thanks,
Michael Greene

[djui5]

Originally posted by MJGreene Audio
Randy,
The problem with ISDN in my case is they have an ISDN box in Prague. The box and the lines are owned buy a company in LA that does this exact thing for their clients. There is no way they will let us use it unless we hire out the session through them. Thats not going to happen so plan B.


Thanks,
Michael Greene

I see...I didn't know this.

Like I said...it would be sweet if you could do this with stuff available

[cajonezzz]

Originally posted by MJGreene Audio
Randy,
The problem with ISDN in my case is they have an ISDN box in Prague. The box and the lines are owned buy a company in LA that does this exact thing for their clients. There is no way they will let us use it unless we hire out the session through them. Thats not going to happen so plan B.

Cajonezz,
Let me see what I can put together and how to make Ichat or Itunes stream audio and then we can give it a try. I love your idea of a camera switcher. It makes great sense if you can do it. I am interested on your take of the digi delivery system. Isn't it a bit pricey to do? It seems like you can do an FTP site for much less but I also liked what I heard about Rockit Network before they folded.

Picksail,
What experiance have you had streaming audio. What is the easiest way to do this?

Thanks,
Michael Greene

Michael, The digidelivery is an expensive buy out option, but I think for plug and play, and super fast upload time, as well as time saved not having to baby sit dropped connections , it may be a really cool thing. I dunno , still in the formative stages for me.

I think the isight thing is very doable, not sure about tapping the console for better audio, and not sure about a switcher, just brain storming at this point.
I've done tons of tracks via Fedex and all, but see this as an opportunity to have the producer remotely work the production... I'm fired up to do it. I've got half a dozen regular clients that I do drum/perc tracks for and I'll hopefully offer some other friends ( LA based heavies) for the service as well. A kind of "drum specific one stop" for remote tracks.
I've seen other guys offer this on the web of course, but there never is any interactivity included... that is key in my mind.( they also tend to be guys offering "real drumtracks for your songs>just 69 bucks! ) Just cutting tracks and sending them back hoping they are what the client is looking for dosen't appeal to me (unless it's a long established working relationship and the trust is there) . near- real time interaction with the artist /producer is crucial, and FREE via ichat av .

[dave-G]

This is a hot topic in my place too.

Digidelivery is not a realtime solution, just a nice front-end on a basic server. Upload speeds (or if they become download speeds on the other end) are going to be limited by your ISP's top upload speed -- ie if you have a Cable modem, or a consumer DSL account, you're likely to be limited to 128 or 256 if you're lucky... It costs a pretty decent sum per month to have an SDSL account (with equal up and download rates ... nice and fast).

Multiple ISDN lines for use with codec boxes like the Telos Zephyr, or the better-sounding APT 3D2 box use up to 6 ISDN lines (Zephyr uses 2, IIRC), and max out at MP3-ish or slightly better audio quality with reasonable latency. I used to use these all the time when I was doing more ad-music. The lines are pretty damned expensive, as I recall. see: http://www.ednet.net/ and the Globecast network.

With a decent internet connection (cable/DSL), the options I'm looking into are Quicktime Broadcaster, and Nicecast.. I need to follow up with fellow gearslut mpr3 about that one, as I believe he has some experience with it.. Maybe he'll post here about it! (wassap, mpr3!)

I think that for the PC users, there's some decent stuff happening with Windows Media that might allow some fairly decent options.

-dave

[MJGreene Audio]

Dave-G,
I was just looking at Quicktime Broadcaster today also. Is it true that you have to be running OSX Server to run it and can't run it on a regular Mac without OSX server? It seems like a great realtime solution for what we are trying to do. The other big question is how will it interface with ISite. They are separate programs so I would think it should be fine except for possible bandwith issues. It to bad you can't stream directly from Nicecast straight from the output from your console or workstation. I was hoping to stream from my IBook G-4 and an M-box connected to my HD rig. Or stream from the console out in Prague (Seattle or the North Pole for that matter) into an Ibook with an M-box or even the direct Audio in's on the Ibook.

Am I nuts????

Michael Greene

[picksail]

Craig,

I was happily informed that my wife is getting me another iSight. I will be installing this one in the tracking room to increase the communication between us and them. I'm hoping to begin streaming this stuff when I figure it all out.

[mpr3]

Originally posted by dave-G
Nicecast.. I need to follow up with fellow gearslut mpr3 about that one, as I believe he has some experience with it.. Maybe he'll post here about it! (wassap, mpr3!)

What's up Dave! Nice talking with you earlier.

***

If you answer yes to any of the following questions, then you may want to have a look at Nicecast (a cheap streaming audio software for OS X):

1. Do you often mix in a location away from your client and wish that you could make real time revisions with them listening live from the internet? (avoiding the hassle of Fed Ex-ing CDs or emailing mp3s which breaks your flow and drags the session on)

2. Do you wish to collaborate via the internet as either a musician, engineer or producer?

3. Do you wish you could broadcast your live performances to family and friends living thousands of miles away?

***

The following sequence is how I setup PT HD to broadcast mixes around the world. This is probably the most complicated means of using Nicecast, so if you follow this then you'll probably be able to use it any other way (especially just streaming music from iTunes).

1. The PT mix is bussed out the Digi 192 SPDIF output to the SPDIF input of a Metric Halo ULN-2. (A native interface with SPDIF I/O is needed to bring the PT mix into OS X's Core Audio where Nicecast can hijack the audio from a native application.)

2. Launch Nicecast and select the Source as 'Spark XL'. (any core audio application can be used as your Source)

3. In the 'Quality' tab, I set the bitrate to 192 or 224 kbs (for single broadband listener) and ensure that the sample rate is set to the native sample rate of the audio to avoid excess processing.

4. Hit 'Start Broadcast' and Spark XL will launch (it should, but launch it manually if it doesn't).

5. I use Spark XL as my native application which listens to the ULN-2's SPDIF input. To set Spark to 'through' audio so that Nicecast can hijack the input, you must launch its Record Window by pressing the record button (nothing needs to be recorded, just armed).

6. Inside Spark's record window ensure that the bit depth is 24 bits stereo, that the sample rate is the same as the incoming audio, and that the 'Monitor' button is enabled for the input. Hit play in PT to verify that audio is coming in through Spark's meters.

7. Now back in Nicecast, click the Share tab and then click the 'Check Now' button which will ping an online server to verify that your are indeed streaming to the internet.

8. If it fails, chances are you are using a router or a switch that needs to be Port Forwarded for the specific Port (8000) and IP address on the computer being used. If you don't have the patience to setup Port Forwarding on port 8000 for your machine, then just connect an ethernet cable from your internet modem directly to your computer and check again.

9. If it works, then click the 'Copy' button inside the Nicecast Share tab.

10. Paste your Nicecast link in an email or chat window for others to access your stream. The listeners will require an application that can playback streaming audio, such as iTunes or WinAmp.

11. If the listener complains about too many 'Rebufferings', then stop the broadcast, lower the bitrate and then start it up again (you are having bandwidth problems somewhere and need to lower the bandwidth requirements).

**Note: Having two machines, like a PT rig and a laptop with a SPDIF interface, may simplify your setup by avoiding driver conflicts. However, I usually do this process on a single G4 1.4mp by making sure the Digi Core Audio driver is not loaded. The ULN-2 handles all my Core Audio duties and allows me to use iTunes for song reference with PT up and running on the same machine.

This all may sound complicated, but once you get things setup for the first time, it pretty much becomes as easy as plug and play from then on.

Mark Robinson

[dave-G]

Mark and I set this stuff up over the phone yesterday and sent each other some music at 224k without too much hassle at all. Not bad for Florida to Hawaii and back!

It works!

This morning, I'm going to be getting an M-Audio Transit interface for my iBook (to accept a SPDIF feed), and doing some live mix tweaks with a client 3500 miles away ... tomorrow!!! ... I'm psyched -- I think this will be a big improvement in my workflow and client-bliss.

Mark -- thanks again for the help .. and you're a mensch for taking the time for the detailed post here. All hail mpr3!

-dave

[picksail]

Mark,

I just downloaded the software. I discovered that it very easy to use. I was up and running without having first refered to the manual. This is a great utensil. I appreciate your very comprehensive instructions on how to collaborate via NiceCast. I have pretty much everything that you are using and intend to try it out very soon. I'll keep you all posted as to the progress.

[MJGreene Audio]

Mark,
Is it possible to walk me thru quickly setting up Port Forwarding so that I can set this up. I must be missing something obvious.

Thanks,
Michael Greene

[mpr3]

I can outline how to port forward with an Apple Airport wireless router. Dave did it with a Linksys wireless router and the procedure is basically the same aside from accessing the various settings windows for the router.

1. Open up System Preferences in OS X and click on the 'Network' icon.

2. Double click near the green dot next to the word Airport (the green dot indicates that this port is connected to the internet - yellow indicates a network connection is made, but no internet - red means no connection and no internet)

3. Click on the TCP/IP tab and jot down the IP Address (most notably the last digits).

4. Now open up Airport Admin Utility (Finder/Applications/Utilities)

5. Select your main base station and click on the Configure button above.

6. Inside the configuration window, click on the 'Port Mapping' tab.

7. Click the Add button on the right and enter the following:

Public Port = 8000
Private Address = the number you wrote down in step 3
Private Port = 8000

8. Hit OK, then the Update button on the bottom. (the Airport will restart and you should now be able to stream from Nicecast to the internet).

What this does is tells your router which IP to refer all port 8000 network calls to. If one day you find that that your Nicecast stream is no longer working on your computer, then your dynamically assigned IP address from your router has probably changed and you need to go through the steps again and insert the correct IP at the Port Mapping (Forwarding) stage. This happens sometimes when another computer on your network is assigned your computer's IP after it has been shutdown.

Goodluck guys, and please share your tips and results. thumbsup

Mark

[MJGreene Audio]

Mark,
May I nominate you to god status!!! Holy crap you are complete aren't you. I will give this a shot when I am home tonight. Thanks a million.

One more quick question. Is this usually the problem with most networks and firewalls? I am about to send a friend with my set up if I can get it working to Prague to do a test with an orchestral session and I don't know what they have on that end other than the fact that they have a high speed connection. Just trying to get some idea of what can go wrong so I can help troubleshoot from across the world.

Thanks again,
Michael Greene

[mpr3]

Thanks for the escalation Michael, I'll gladly accept the status of God and promise to do good because evil is dumb.

Basically Nicecast turns your computer into a server, no different than one that shares websites, so there has to be tiny hole that is poked through your firewall that allows the calls to be answered.

If a person can browse the internet on their computer then they will always be able to listen to a stream coming from a music server without any complications (assuming their playback application works) . So if your friend in Prague is just listening, then no worries, but if he is the one doing the hosting to you then he will have to follow the procedures I outlined out here.

As long as they are using Mac OS X and have access to the settings windows for their specific router (if they even use one), then I can't foresee any problems. I regularly use Nicecast in both directions to and from Germany, LA, San Diego and Australia and the only issues I have are bandwidth issues which cannot be predicted. As you probably know sometimes a broadband connection (especially cable) can get slow and the question usually becomes: is it my end or theirs that is lagging?

The average home broadband download is 1.5 megabits, and the average home broadband upload is 128 to 300 kbits, so with a 224 kbits stream, the bandwidth problem usually ends up on the music server side. Just keep in mind that the music server streams point to point, so if you have 3 people listening to your 224 kbit stream, then you will require three times that amount in upload bandwidth.

I find that if your ears are sensitive to compression effects, then you want to stay 160 kbps (minimum) and above (with 224 kbps sounding great considering the situation). YMMV

[MJGreene Audio]

Mark, (God Upgraded)

Thanks for clearing that up. I will talk over with my friend about the Prague issue. It is originating from there and we will be listening at my studio so it may be a bit of an unknown but I will copy and paste your directions and see if we can get it working.

Again thanks for all your great help,
Michael Greene

[chris-melchior]

fot the last year or so I've been doing remote string sessions. It has worked very well . . . I was originally Fed-ex-ing CD's, but now usually FTP files accross.

The typical working method is that I recieve an mp3 or the other-wise finished track, and either MIDI-strings or written string parts. I then go into a top quality studio, record the strings and FTP the files to where they are needed. It works really well . . . and as far as I know, I am the only person in the world doing top quality strings for a sensible budget that even small studios can afford.

I've created strings for Virgin and Atlantic Records, so my quality is the best there is, yet I still offer the same results at low cost. The last strings I did for a record label in Hollywood . . .I played 18 string parts for a typical song, all for a total of only 400 US dollars.

For more details see my website . . .

http://www.chris-melchior.com/strings/htm

Chris

[chris-melchior]

just to add a little more to my last post.

I don't use video-conferencing. I don't think it would help for the typical work I do with real strings, where the producer has already decided on the kind of string lines he wants, and I've got either an approximate MIDI file, or string parts to work from. My experience is so wide and deep that I can play the right expression and make the strings relly work well with any style.

However, I know that would not be the case with most classical players, who would need a lot of direction and help to be able to play the right expression and feel for most genres. So video-conferencing would be useful in many instances.

[Shan]

I've been following this post with strong interest. I use windows. Would it be possible to do this with windows on one end and Mac on the other? I have a mac user friend and we can be the lab rats for this. Any suggestions?

Shane

[cajonezzz]

Originally posted by chris-melchior
fot the last year or so I've been doing remote string sessions. It has worked very well . . . I was originally Fed-ex-ing CD's, but now usually FTP files accross.

The typical working method is that I recieve an mp3 or the other-wise finished track, and either MIDI-strings or written string parts. I then go into a top quality studio, record the strings and FTP the files to where they are needed. It works really well . . . and as far as I know, I am the only person in the world doing top quality strings for a sensible budget that even small studios can afford.

I've created strings for Virgin and Atlantic Records, so my quality is the best there is, yet I still offer the same results at low cost. The last strings I did for a record label in Hollywood . . .I played 18 string parts for a typical song, all for a total of only 400 US dollars.

For more details see my website . . .

http://www.chris-melchior.com/strings/htm

Chris

Chris, this link is dead on my computer.... love to look at it.
craig

[Remoteness]

Craig:

You're right the link is dead but, I went to the main page and clicked on his music link... Then I clicked on the creative strings :- arranging and playing link.

http://www.chris-melchior.com

[chris-melchior]

Sorry!

In my typing haste I got one character wrong. The link should be . . .

http://www.chris-melchior.com/strings.htm

thanks

Chris

[Shan]

Here is a new tool for remote recording work. All inside Pro Tools.

More info here.

Now THIS is an RTAS app some of us on this thread can use.

Say goodbye to expensive encoding/decoding boxes at each end and no ISDN line charges. Wow.

Check it out.

Shane