Who's doing M/S recording?

[Recording David]

I dig MS a lot - just stunning imaging and I especially like it on small scale chamber music.

I use one of these with my Schoeps MS pair + DAV preamp: Peter Engh - Sound Recording Interface Products

Very happy with the sound this little rig produces.

[timray]

I find the following 2 setups stunning, beautiful for live acoustic steel string (finger picking and chording, no pick) and male vocal. In a great room:

1. Bock 251 mid, Royer 122v side, into a Peach 196 stereo pre set to MS. Air and clarity in the middle, wrapped in velvet on the sides. About 2-3 feet out. Sounds more like being in the room than being in the room. Set levels before engaging the MS mode on the Peach.

2. Neuman SM2 about one foot out from the guitar into a Peach 196 stereo pre in MS, mid sent to Retro 176 about -7 db, side flat. Neuman U67 close on voice, to one channel of a Peach, to a Retro 176 about -5 db. A little Bricasti old plate from the vocal on the aux returns. Jumps out of the speakers.

Salt and pepper to taste. If no Peach pre, a LaChapell 992eg works. Intimate is the word that comes to mind about MS.

[TheRealRoach]

Oh yeah, and check this out. I have yet to try it but seems simple enough:
Voxengo - Free Plug-Ins
It's called "MSED". Looks like an encoder/decoder that allows for simultaneous adjustment of M/S information.

[Corran]

I use the Voxengo plug all the time, it works well.

I like M-S but to me it's a little finicky in placement. Sometimes it sounds good, sometimes not. And while you can change the width of the stereo image you can't change the direct-to-reverb ratio if it was too close/far.

[RyanC]

Cool to see this-

I too am an MS freak. One really cool trick (sometimes) is spaced MS. With the mid being your typical LDC and a side mic about 10 feet away. Of course this isn't necessarily an accurate method as far it goes but with just a bit of the s mixed in it can give a vocal a very natural sense of space.

I track almost everything with MS room mics, I can always toss em if they aren't working, but with a good sounding room it's just so great to be able to have a line that can be placed in the stereo image instead of the typical dot.

Ultimately being an MS freak means I need to get my hands on a soundfield mic, basically the ultimate in MS-ness. . .

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Corran

I use the Voxengo plug all the time, it works well.

+1

Same here - I encode/decode using the plug-in in Sequoia.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by RyanC

Cool to see this-

I too am an MS freak. One really cool trick (sometimes) is spaced MS. With the mid being your typical LDC and a side mic about 10 feet away. Of course this isn't necessarily an accurate method as far it goes but with just a bit of the s mixed in it can give a vocal a very natural sense of space.

I track almost everything with MS room mics, I can always toss em if they aren't working, but with a good sounding room it's just so great to be able to have a line that can be placed in the stereo image instead of the typical dot.

Ultimately being an MS freak means I need to get my hands on a soundfield mic, basically the ultimate in MS-ness. . .

Slight highjack -

There is also the Schoeps DMS technique: two MK4's and an Mk8. It allows the same decoding flexibility as the SF, but has not "overhead" mic dimension. I am not sure this "overhead" dimension can be used in the SF setup.

I want to try the DMS, but am stymied by the cost of the mic clips.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by JD Latorre

I do a fair amount of classical large ensemble recording and have used an MS set up exclusively for the last two years. I have tried X Y, spaced pair and decca set ups, but I really like how MS gives me the perfect balance of a solid center image and a stereo width that I can mix to taste.

One question for those who do orchestral MS sessions--do you find that you get a perfectly realistic stereo image? In other words, if the trumpets are on the far right of the ensemble on stage, do you get a perfect representation of that on play back? I find that some times I get "ghost" images on the other side of the stereo field.

FYI: I am using a Peluso P12 (mid) and a Peluso R14 as the side. From some of the comments on the thread I already have a few ideas what might be causing it.

I have had this occur on occasion. It is fleeting, but upsetting. I do not know the solution. Better mic placement? Is it enhanced by room reflection? Anyone know about this??

[David Spearritt]

Reflections from the stage sides perhaps?

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Reflections from the stage sides perhaps?

Not unlikely - I've heard similar phenomena with AB setups.

[Larry Elliott]

With instruments like trumpets that are highly directional at mid and high frequencies it is not unusual to get reflections from the opposite side of the concert hall or stage house.
By the time these get to the body of the hall - audience areas - there are sufficiently low in level not to create a problem.

With a directional characteristics of a Fig 8 microphone aimed at the side there is sufficient “gain” to “boost” those reflections to a level where they are noticeable. Of course it can happen with other mic configurations, but is more likely to occur with M-S.

Larry

[Omicron_9]

Greetings.

Huge M/S freak here. I just ordered a Sonic Orbit from Peter Engh. Looking forward to it.

I recently acquired a Peluso P-Stereo mic; it is a wunderbeast for M/S.


Regards,
-0.9

[Ozpeter]

Low cost devices like the Edirol R-44 with built in MS support (two pairs!) must be helping the MS cause.

Note that Voxengo MSED version 2 is now available. Voxengo - MSED

[boojum]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Reflections from the stage sides perhaps?

I thought that, too. But I cannot be sure. Larry Elliott's comment makes it clearer and supports what my rudimentary engineering knowledge would lead me to believe. Thanks for the input.

I think for small groups, like chamber quartets, small acoustic groups and so on MS is just great. I want to compare it against ORTF and A-B sometime. There are some small venues around where I live which would not mind my screwy three mic arrays setup. All I have to do now is solder those mini XLRF's. Arrrgggh!

[Corran]

Originally Posted by Ozpeter

Low cost devices like the Edirol R-44 with built in MS support (two pairs!) must be helping the MS cause.

Note that Voxengo MSED version 2 is now available. Voxengo - MSED

Cool! Thanks for the heads up. I really like the new AB comparison functionality. I'll try it out on my next MS recording.

[sonicdefault]

Originally Posted by timray

...

1. Bock 251 mid, Royer 122v side, into a Peach 196 stereo pre set to MS. Air and clarity in the middle, wrapped in velvet on the sides.

...

That description alone says it all... very nice. I want a Peach too.


-SD

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Ozpeter

Low cost devices like the Edirol R-44 with built in MS support (two pairs!) must be helping the MS cause.

Note that Voxengo MSED version 2 is now available. Voxengo - MSED

And high cost devices like teh Nagra VI as well.

Thanks for the link to Voxengo MSED v2 - just downloaded it.

[timray]

SonicDefault: thanks for the comment. I think the Peach is magnificent, I have 8 channels, use them for everything as first choice. That is ahead of the V76, V78, LaChapell eg, SST1, Germ, SH Gama, Helios 74s. I probably should have also mentioned that I put the tracks direct into Logic 8 thru a Weiss ADC2 and a DAD AX24 at 96Kh, then out thru the DAD into a Neve 8816, aux to the Briscasti, and listened thru Barefoot MM27s in a well treated control room. Hummmm...could have bought a nice new car for that single chain, but my old Subaru works just fine. I love MS. My music is sparce, quiet, acoustic, so I mix the rest of the instruments into that initial live MS space without loosing the dimension. That set up was inspired by David Peach telling me I needed to get a C24 (after he heard some of my tunes), put it out a few feet and go MS without anything else in the chain, no compression. So I did a variation on a C24 best I could with what I had. He's brilliant. And MS is definitely the best way to get the best out of the best pre....not that I have a opinion. It's spinetinglingly awsome.

[RobAnderson]

One question for those who do orchestral MS sessions--do you find that you get a perfectly realistic stereo image? In other words, if the trumpets are on the far right of the ensemble on stage, do you get a perfect representation of that on play back? I find that some times I get "ghost" images on the other side of the stereo field.

I don't use MS as a main pickup all that often, but I know that if you present it with something that is too wide for the array, depending on what your "mid" pattern is, you could get "wraparound" imaging - it would possibly be the result of a rear lobe in the pattern.

For instance, if you present a Blumlein array with something greater than 90-degree recording angle, you might get this sort of wraparound effect.

Another possibility could be too much side signal in the mix. Often MS is "abused" in this way. Contrary to popular belief, there is an optimal ratio of mid-to-side depending on the polar pattern of the mid mic. I have heard orchestral recordings that, when collapsed to mono, only contain the woodwinds.

Originally Posted by d_fu:
I've heard similar phenomena with AB setups.

This usually happens or is most noticeable at high frequencies, yes? It is usually due the spacing of the AB pair and is generally because the inter-channel time difference is great enough for the brain to distinguish the first wavefront and also the delayed one in the other channel separately.

As a sidebar, for those of you who use ProTools and do not have access to an MS plugin, I recently wrote a short tutorial on how to set this up in ProTools. You can find this at the bottom of the website in my signature.

[tsvisser]

I find that M-S recordings imaging / soundstage is never truly accurate, although sometimes closer than not. It can usually be bested by X-Y and can be nearly perfect with properly setup ORTF, but if I have less than 30 minutes to place mics, I'll probably just go straight to M-S. It does sound beautiful and is the most resistant to "issues" that can rear their heads with other techniques. The on-axis mid component is a really strong reason to fall back onto this method if you have any doubts at all about your setup or the venue's acoustics.

[aracu]

Originally Posted by tsvisser

It does sound beautiful and is the most resistant to "issues" that can rear their heads with other techniques. The on-axis mid component is a really strong reason to fall back onto this method if you have any doubts at all about your setup or the venue's acoustics.

It's an excellent technique for typical real world situations with bad room acoustics and short set up times. MS gives emergency alternatives in mastering, such as an on axis mono recording, or middle mic with two spaced omnis if there are outriggers. With badly placed ensembles where soloists are way off to one side, a movement can occasionally sound better with the mid- side recording left unmatrixed, which creates an ambiguous, pseudo stereo image, so that something way off to one side can seem to be in the center.

[JD Latorre]

Originally Posted by Larry Elliott

With instruments like trumpets that are highly directional at mid and high frequencies it is not unusual to get reflections from the opposite side of the concert hall or stage house.
By the time these get to the body of the hall - audience areas - there are sufficiently low in level not to create a problem.


Larry

I did not intend to high-jack this thread with my question about "ghost images", but thanks to all who gave thoughts. Given the relatively small space that we are recording in and the fact that the side wall surface is very reflective, I bet the side reflections are to blame for what I have experienced. As Larry Elliott pointed out, my problem most often occurs with trumpets and trombones, which would be the most directional instruments in the ensemble. At least I can sleep at night now knowing that my set up is not to blame.

[sonicdefault]

Originally Posted by timray

SonicDefault: thanks for the comment. I think the Peach is magnificent, I have 8 channels, use them for everything as first choice. That is ahead of the V76, V78, LaChapell eg, SST1, Germ, SH Gama, Helios 74s. I probably should have also mentioned that I put the tracks direct into Logic 8 thru a Weiss ADC2 and a DAD AX24 at 96Kh, then out thru the DAD into a Neve 8816, aux to the Briscasti, and listened thru Barefoot MM27s in a well treated control room. Hummmm...could have bought a nice new car for that single chain, but my old Subaru works just fine. I love MS. My music is sparce, quiet, acoustic, so I mix the rest of the instruments into that initial live MS space without loosing the dimension. That set up was inspired by David Peach telling me I needed to get a C24 (after he heard some of my tunes), put it out a few feet and go MS without anything else in the chain, no compression. So I did a variation on a C24 best I could with what I had. He's brilliant. And MS is definitely the best way to get the best out of the best pre....not that I have a opinion. It's spinetinglingly awsome.

HAHA!

That's awesome! You're really speaking my language of tone! Seems we have very similar aesthetic tastes... what kind of instruments/styles do you usually record?


-SD

[timray]

SD: will send a PM in reply.