DSD, finally in all it's glory!

[hollywood_steve]

My DSD listening had been limited to 2 track recording / playback as I had sold my analog mixer prior to purchasing the Genex. But now that I have my API 7800/8200 system, I can record to 8ch DSD, make a single conversion to analog, mix through the API and listen to the results. This is in comparison to my standard way of working for the past year, where I would use the Genex DSD to PCM converters to mix and listen to the recording. Flame on all you want, but the DSD to analog chain, with no PCM stage, just kills anything I have ever recorded. I've been listening for an hour now and its like I just traded in my boombox for an audiophile rig. This is what I have been waiting and working towards for a LONG time. Too bad that its strictly a "real time" experience - the audio is going from the API mixer outputs right to the Hafler amp inputs, no way to capture this for later playback.

[Drumsound]

Very cool Steve. Why not record 6 tracks and mix to the other two, DSD and then make an SACD?

Or mix to a nice ATR-102, or a lathe...

[BrianK]

The only things I have heard about DSD are really exceptional reviews from picky people, as you just did. I'm curious to get my hands on it someday.

[cdog]

Get a 1/2" to record the mix to....

[hollywood_steve]

and then make an SACD?


I will, as soon as somebody starts selling "SACD burners"......


But seriously, Phillips announced some interesting software at AES that willl allow you to create a "virtual" SACD on your hard drive. At least that's what I got out of the brochure - must do more research.

[djui5]

Originally posted by hollywood_steve
and then make an SACD?


I will, as soon as somebody starts selling "SACD burners"......


But seriously, Phillips announced some interesting software at AES that willl allow you to create a "virtual" SACD on your hard drive. At least that's what I got out of the brochure - must do more research.

This allows you to author a SACD....print a disk image of it...but you can't actually make an SACD.....you send the image off to the plant (at Sony I believe) and they print/stamp the disk.....it just saves Sony another step and offers you more control over the final product.

[hollywood_steve]

This allows you to author a SACD....print a disk image of it...but you can't actually make an SACD.....you send the image off to the plant (at Sony I believe) and they print/stamp the disk.....it just saves Sony another step and offers you more control over the final product.

That was my basic understanding as well. My question now concerns whether its possible to playback that image file somehow? I'm hoping that anyone with a set of DSD to analog converters could play this file back; I can't imagine going through all that effort if you couldn't use the file as a "test pressing".

[Douglas Whates]

Hi Steve,

Nice to hear you finally got that analogue summing box you've been after.

How do you find it compares, purely as a summing device, to the internal summing of the Genex to it's monitor outs?

Also - what are you using for the conversion from DSD to analogue? The Genex internal converters, I assume?

I'm still very much interested in the Genex, and am just trying to sort out exactly what my budget will be - all things considered.

I imagine a workflow similar to yours, but still imagine the end product to be 44.1KHz, 16bit. As such, do you think there is benefit to using an external summing box? Would I just be better mixing to the Genex's monitor pair and converting that to 44.1/16...? I wonder...

I'd imagine the absolute best way to do it would be to record to DSD, output 8 channels DSD to some sort of high quality external DSD->Analogue converter, take those 8 channels to the summing box/mixer, take the resultant two summed channels to a high quality A-D converter @ 44.1/16bit. Would that be the best path to CD? Do you think the sonic benefits of using DSD as the initial format would still be apparent after such a signal chain?

Douglas.

[Plush]

Dear Hollywood Steve,

I'm hoping that the new Tascam DV-RA1000, supposed to be available in January, will help you.

It is a new CD-R/SACD-R recorder which has SDIF-3 interfaces.
If the unit does not have some encryption or copy code on it you could transfer from your Genex to the DVD+RW format.

Supposedly this unit has DSD=====>Analog converters on board.

Have you checked this box's action?

[Plush]

Originally posted by naturalstudio
Do you think the sonic benefits of using DSD as the initial format would still be apparent after such a signal chain?

Douglas.

The answer to that would be, NO

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by hollywood_steve
Too bad that its strictly a "real time" experience -

well, players will just have to play it right and mix down to the mest medium you can.... maybe the 48 channel genex and leave two open for mix.

[hollywood_steve]

How do you find it compares, purely as a summing device, to the internal summing of the Genex to it's monitor outs?

I discussed this on another thread somewhere......
It's really not a fair comparison as the Genex onboard mixer was really intended for simple monitor mixing, not for creating the main stereo output. It has very limited controls, like switched pan pots with only 3 steps on either side of straight up. And, of course, it is a PCM mixer, and I went into detail in that other thread about how great the unadulterated "DSD to analog to your ears" signal path sounds. The Genex mixer is a very handy little utility, but no, its no API mixer!

Also - what are you using for the conversion from DSD to analogue? The Genex internal converters, I assume?

Yes, and I'm hoping that between Genex and Radar, people will finally come to terms with the idea of their internal converters being as good or better than many (most?) available outboard units.


I'm still very much interested in the Genex, and am just trying to sort out exactly what my budget will be - all things considered.

FWIW, my 8ch GX9000 stayed well under $6k, and that included the pair of Seagate Cheetah 15k rpm SCSI drives in Kingston carriers, the full DSD, Analog, PCM converter option, the full rear panel I/O option, a pair of high quality db25 / XLR 8ch snakes and a custom shock rack. When you add everything up, the GX9000 is no more expensive than the better versions of the Tascam and Mackie HD recorders (similarly equipped)

As such, do you think there is benefit to using an external summing box? Would I just be better mixing to the Genex's monitor pair and converting that to 44.1/16...? I wonder...

Yes, for a few reasons. One, the onboard mixer is frustratingly limited in capabilities and features. Two, even though your current work is ending up at 16b/44k, who's to say that won't change soon? Three, the first time you hear a recording tracked to DSD and played back with only a single DSD to Analog conversion, you will want that capability, even if only for your own use. And that new Tascam recorder may just change how all of us DSD guys work.....I must investigate further.


would be to record to DSD, output 8 channels DSD to some sort of high quality external DSD->Analogue converter, take those 8 channels to the summing box/mixer, take the resultant two summed channels to a high quality A-D converter @ 44.1/16bit. Would that be the best path to CD?

that's the way I am now working



Do you think the sonic benefits of using DSD as the initial format would still be apparent after such a signal chain?

debatable, but the key is that the last step you mention (convert to PCM) is only for the product you are delivering today. YOu can archive prior to that step, you can listen prior to that step, and now with the new Tascam deck, you can burn DSD DVDs without hitting PCM. (IF this Tascam box does what we hope it does, this could be VERY cool!)

Tascam DV-RA1000, supposed to be available in January, will help you. It is a new CD-R/SACD-R recorder which has SDIF-3 interfaces.

I'm hoping that SDIF-3 means BNC connectors as that is the only type of DSD output on the Genex. Like I said, I need to do my homework regarding this new Tascam box; but it looks like its going to save me from buying a computer. I was going to buy a PC with a SCSI hot swap bay just to download and archive my raw tracks and then return the empty SCSI drive to the Genex. But if I can burn DSD files to DVD, this may be a whole new ballgame. In any event, it means that I can finally burn DSD disks, and that is a huge step forward, even if only other owners of this box can play them back.

[batcave]

I've been checking out the Tascam box and ran across this picture of the back.

[batcave]

And this one of the front.

[mangoid]

Hey all,

Yeah, exciting stuff. A few thoughts from my travels.

The DV-RA1000 seems great for recording digitally, which it sounds like you would be doing. The converters in the box were described by one of the top mastering engineers as something like "not too embarrassing," so i wouldn't count it being great as a *reference* playback device (unless you run its SDIF output through Mytek's new Stereo DSD 192 DAC for monitoring), or for converting the analog signal to DSD. But if you're feeding it DSD from a digital source (such as the Genex) or from high-end A-to-DSD converters (such as the dCS models that include SDIF), it should be great for the price. The other thing is it is only stereo, so no 5.1 mixes. And it won't burn SA-CDs; you can only play those discs on the unit itself.

Mytek, as some of you know, has also been working for several years on its D-Master project, which is basically a much more elegant, audiophile-grade execution of the DV-RA1000 concept (though the converters used in the prototypes are already oudated; hopefully Michal will fix this by the time it's widely available). He's trying to create the first digital mastering recorder that sounds every bit as good as 1/2" tape, without the tape. If you have the money and the time, i'd advise considering waiting for the Mytek instead of getting the Tascam.

As for the Phillips DSD export plug-in, that only works with Pro Tools, so it's a PCM-to-DSD solution - not ideal, but an affordable way to get to DSD if you're working in Pro Tools. Phillips makes a Windows-only hardware SA-CD authoring system for over $10k... not really priced competitively with other options.

But another lesser-known solution, for Mac OS X, is from Sonic Studios. They have a package that records DSD and has an authoring option that's expensive but more affordable than some of the other solutions out there.

Cheers,
m

[Sounds Great]

There is no use in using DSD if there is any PCM conversion happening anywhere in the process. Once a PCM conversion has taken place, DSD cannot bring back what was lost.

With one exception, DSD storage and playback of high definition PCM multi-track will be superior to CD playback, as even more would otherwise be lost in conversion down to 44.1.

I am excited about prospects of DSD multi-tracking, as it is the only way to capture the magic of analog recording with digital media, in my opinion.

I've heard that Radar with the Nyquist converters can also come close, but I have not personally heard it so I can't comment.

[Sounds Great]

I bought a bunch of cassettes and have been adding to the collection from all the new vinyl I've been buying. And now I am starting on my SACD collection. Wow! Even through cassette (I have a 3 head machine) these things just sound so damn good.

Tonight I had Billy Joel's 'The Stranger' going. Flat out amazing. I am hearing stuff on there I've just never heard before. After decades of hearing it. I can't imagine anyone can listen to this SACD and honestly say a CD sounds this good. Impossible.

[raal]

Originally Posted by mangoid

Mytek, as some of you know, has also been working for several years on its D-Master project, which is basically a much more elegant, audiophile-grade execution of the DV-RA1000 concept (though the converters used in the prototypes are already oudated; hopefully Michal will fix this by the time it's widely available). He's trying to create the first digital mastering recorder that sounds every bit as good as 1/2" tape, without the tape. If you have the money and the time, i'd advise considering waiting for the Mytek instead of getting the Tascam.

any idea when the mytec would be available?

[raal]

Originally Posted by raal

any idea when the mytec would be available?

.... and how much it'll be? thank you.

[ajcamlet]

isnt that filed under vaporware at this point
?

[Ted Nightshade]

Well I'm real interested in stereo master recorders. This Masterlink is working great right now, knock on wood, but it's not exactly super-robust and confidence inspiring. I do wonder what a better recorder would be like.

Comparing DSD to PCM, I'd want to use the SLAM! as the PCM candidate. I'm thinking, based on using the recent stand-alone Genex PCM converters, that those Genex PCM converters do not do a great job of PCM. It's damned hard to find converters that do! The SLAM! does PCM pretty well indeed, but 8 channels of that is awful 'spensive...

So for a multitrack digital recorder, could well be DSD is the only halfway affordable way to get something that sounds healthy in comparison to a nice tape machine.

Anyway, I continue to perk up my ears over here... carry on...

[mangoid]

The latest Mytek update, AFAIK, is the the DSD Master project is still moving forward in slo-mo, but no ETA, so still effectively vaporware unless you're one of Michal's lucky beta testers (mostly NY studio folks, i think).

But the good (and slightly less vaporous) news is that Mytek has a different DSD product in the oven - its 8x192 ADDA (which was due to ship this month, though i don't know the actual status) will have a DSD option - 8ch of A-to-DSD and DSD-to-A for an extra $2k (MSRP) on top of the regular price. That ain't cheap, but it's cheaper than 8 channels of DCS or Meitner by a long shot. The difference between this and the DSD Master is the lack of a built-in recording medium; you'll still have to print your DSD to something (and the cheapest way to do that, AFAIK, is still the Tascam DV-RA1000).

HTH

m

[raal]

Originally Posted by mangoid

...The difference between this and the DSD Master is the lack of a built-in recording medium; you'll still have to print your DSD to something (and the cheapest way to do that, AFAIK, is still the Tascam DV-RA1000).

so for now practically speaking it's tascam or tascam... but the converters aren't up to par... so has anyone actually heard one against something 'good'?

[mangoid]

Originally Posted by raal

so for now practically speaking it's tascam or tascam... but the converters aren't up to par... so has anyone actually heard one against something 'good'?

Michal at Mytek just told me they have completed prototypes of the 8x192 ADDA, and will be ramping up production over the next 2 months. So if you can wait until July, you should be able to use the new Mytek's DSD conversion to go digitally into and out of the Tascam, bypassing its lame converters (using it just as a digital master recorder).

Meanwhile, if you're in a hurry and happen to have $8k or so burning a hole in your pocket, you can use the Sonic Solutions DSD.1 http://www.sonicstudio.com/products/dsd1.html , and feed it with a dCS 904 ($6400 2ch A-to-DSD), and monitor off of a dCS 954 ($6400 DSD-to-A).... and you could probably consider that "good."

Cheers,
m

[Lynn Fuston]

Originally Posted by Plush

Dear Hollywood Steve,

I'm hoping that the new Tascam DV-RA1000, supposed to be available in January, will help you.

It is a new CD-R/SACD-R recorder which has SDIF-3 interfaces.

This is not correct information, according to what I've been told. It is a CD-R/DVD-R burner combined with a DSD/PCM recorder.

There is no SACD burner built in. It will only burn CDs and DVDs.

[MBishopSFX]

Re: Jim Dickinson's interview & comments on the Sonoma 24-track DSD used for John Hiatt's latest release:

http://www.johnhiatt.com/JimDickinson.swf

a tidbit from that interview:

"...I've been working pro tools like everybody else and after you work pro tools all day long, you feel like you have your head in a bucket and somebody's hitting it with a hammer."
...donning my Nomex hood.

[Plush]

Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston

This is not correct information, according to what I've been told. It is a CD-R/DVD-R burner combined with a DSD/PCM recorder.

There is no SACD burner built in. It will only burn CDs and DVDs.

Yes, you're certainly correct. It is a cd-r and DVD+RW recorder.
When I wrote this a while back, by brain slipped.

Now we have been using this new Tascam unit for a while now. It sounds very good when fed from an external AES in or from an external converter. Reliability seems good.

We have recorded DSD from our Neve DPD mic amp/converter box and the DSD is OK.
Personally I find little benefit in DSD over 24/96 pcm when listening back through the dCS.

We have recorded in DSD since 1998---but hearing little difference, dumped our DSD equipment.

Now, in acquiring the Neve for its mic amps and pcm conversion capabilities and the Tascam for its ability to make hi-res back-ups, we are , ironically now able AGAIN to compare DSD to ri-res pcm.

DSD---no big deal.

Hudsonek

[mytek]

Originally Posted by mangoid

Michal at Mytek just told me they have completed prototypes of the 8x192 ADDA, and will be ramping up production over the next 2 months. So if you can wait until July, you should be able to use the new Mytek's DSD conversion to go digitally into and out of the Tascam, bypassing its lame converters (using it just as a digital master recorder)()

Yes, the posts here about Mytek and DSD are pretty accurate. We have been developing a state of the art DSD technology for last several years while working on mentioned D-Master product. The prototype and its converters have blown away everybody who tried it- try searching posts on Glenn Meadows mastering board. My experience with DSD sound is what turn myself into this format strong supporter. Well implemented DSD is the digital without "digitus" and this is main reason why seasoned engineers who remember analog days prefer it over Protools etc. It's also a great consumer delivery format (SACD).

The D-Master project may or may not be completed at this point for unrelated reasons, but we have transferred much of this technology into our two new products- 8X192ADDA which has an optional DSD firmware and Stereo192/DSD DAC which will be subsequently released. We hope to release a firewire card for 8X192 shortly after releasing product itself. Following we are releasing a simple recording application for firewire equipped 8X192 with DSD option. This application will essentially have a function of the Tascam DVRA1000, but instead of writing stereo DSD files on DVD-R it'll write up to 8 channels of DSD on computer harddisk. Alternatively you can use the 8X192 to feed two channels of DSD to Tascam if you are doing just stereo and prefer the recorder over a laptop or desktop. I'll soon be posting extensive info on newly revised Mytek website with pictures, specs etc.

Regards, Michal @ Mytek

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by mytek

My experience with DSD sound is what turn myself into this format strong supporter. Well implemented DSD is the digital without "digitus" and this is main reason why seasoned engineers who remember analog days prefer it over Protools etc. It's also a great consumer delivery format (SACD).

I listened to Sting's 'Brand New Day' for many years since it's release on CD, as that was the only format it was on. And it sounds pretty damn good for CD. I really love this record, yet there were a couple of parts that were a bit harsh, especially the rapping on one tune, and some other loud passages

Then it finally came out on SACD. Harshness gone. There is still distortion on those sounds, but they sound awesome. I can turn it up! There are just certain sounds that CD (PCM?) seems to mangle. Records & tape don't have this problem (though they have many others), and SACD's don't have any of these problems.

[scb]

Originally Posted by mytek

I'll soon be posting extensive info on newly revised Mytek website with pictures, specs etc.

Regards, Michal @ Mytek

when does the site go live?

if you ever need any web work, let me know! i can try to help if you need it (for free)

(still loving the stereo192 adc)